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So VAR then ... still for or against?

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    #26
    Has all the Euro qualifying stuff from the Nations League already happened? Is there some benefit to winning this thing, or is just a glorified friendly tournament.

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      #27
      Think the qualifying thing is a year or so away still. He says clutching at straws for Scotland.

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        #28
        VAR: there were a couple of occasions in the FA cup where it depended which level of team was at home whether it was used or not, which was fucking scandalous and the kind of uneven playing field that technological changes always risk making worse

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          #29
          VAR is not a bad idea per se. It is a clear benefit in (field) Hockey, which is a similar enough sport to Football in general game play and rules to suggest that a similar implementation is possible. However the way Football has gone about it has been problematic.

          For the record, what Hockey does is allow teams one referral to video per match. They retain that if the decision is overturned, they lose it if it isn't. And the standard for swapping is there has to be a clear reason to disregarding the initial decision. If it's ambiguous, the original call stands and that team cannot refer anything again all game. Teams swiftly learned that this was a valuable resource, not to be wasted. Only issues with a clear mistake that was obvious to the players on the field get sent upstairs, decisions which were a judgement call on the officials behalf do not.
          It also cuts down on dissent. Players approach Ump to argue a decision. The Ump immediately asks "Do you want to review?" If the answer is yes, the players ask their question and wait. If it's no because they are not really as sure of what they are claiming as they were making out, the players walk away with their tails between their legs.

          Football has somehow ended up with a system where players feel they need to badger refs to look at something as it's only the ref who can call for a review, not them.

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            #30
            Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
            It's still terrible. It's disruptive to the game. It removes authority from referees. It's not even particularly good seeing that it's given a whole bunch of moronic hand-ball decisions. And it's exclusive - it's something that's only available to the rich boys in the big leagues, separating the game they play from the game that other people play.
            That sums up my feelings too. Get rid.

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              #31
              I would have thought that refs might welcome the burden of always being expected to get the decision right shared out a little more. Have they been asked for their opinion of VAR?

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                #32
                I think the hockey suggestion would have worked - one failed review per half, maybe?

                As it is now it's basically an extra ref watching along on a screen and signalling to a ref, which is why there is a delay in games being stopped.

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                  #33
                  I'm just happy that I managed to live most of my life in a pre-VAR world, so I can always remember what football used to be like before they decided that they had to turn it into this un-spectacle. The best I can hope for is that like seating-only football there will be levels below it will not be introduced.

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                    #34
                    Still support it. But the implementation is woeful, and in my more conspiratorial moments, wonder if this was deliberate.

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                      #35
                      It seemed to work really well during the World Cup but has been a disaster everywhere else since.

                      The handball issues have been a pain in the ass and it's made offside even more difficult to understand, which I didn't think possible. How is a player supposed to ensure his finger isn't offside? The problem with VAR is that there is now no margin for error - everything has to be 100% correct, and that's simply not possible. I think it would be better with a review system - but it will only lead to managers kicking off when a decision goes against them and they've used all their reviews.

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                        #36
                        Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                        If VAR - as it often does, despite the mistakes - rectifies mistaken decisions, where is the problem?

                        Are those against similarly anti when it comes to cricket or rugby or tennis etc., with their own technologies?
                        But there's the problem Sporting, despite all the technology, all the camera angles, all the soul-destroying waiting around it still only often rectifies mistakes. I don't really care about the other sports, but cricket/tennis have natrual breaks between every delivery/point so it's not as disruptive, and yes I think rugby has suffered hugely from the vogue for a ref going upstairs to ask 'is there any reason I can't award the try?'

                        I was against VAR, but expected to be slowly won around, but it's hideous and it's destroying the soul of the game.

                        And on handball, there is an issue of interpretation, but VAR hasn't helped anyway as watching it again and again,especially in slow motion distorts the moment and makes everything seem more calculated and deliberate. If we have to review handball (and we don't) then it should be at full speed only.

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                          #37
                          Hang on " Sissoko 'handball' in the Champions League Final" wasn't decided by VAR. It was given on the pitch by the referee. It was subsequently checked by VAR but they just confirmed the decision. Just because VAR was present at the game doesn't make it a VAR ruling.

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                            #38
                            Originally posted by Simon G View Post
                            It seemed to work really well during the World Cup but has been a disaster everywhere else since.

                            The handball issues have been a pain in the ass and it's made offside even more difficult to understand, which I didn't think possible. How is a player supposed to ensure his finger isn't offside? The problem with VAR is that there is now no margin for error - everything has to be 100% correct, and that's simply not possible. I think it would be better with a review system - but it will only lead to managers kicking off when a decision goes against them and they've used all their reviews.
                            Pedantry alert.... your hand/arm can't be offside, just any potentially scoring part of your body. But your point remains- a foot or head fractionally offside is hardly the spirit of the law or the game

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                              #39
                              I was always in favor of VAR, and now I'm even more in favor of it. The implementation may need tweaking, though.

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                                #40
                                Originally posted by Levin View Post
                                Hang on " Sissoko 'handball' in the Champions League Final" wasn't decided by VAR. It was given on the pitch by the referee. It was subsequently checked by VAR but they just confirmed the decision. Just because VAR was present at the game doesn't make it a VAR ruling.
                                I tried making the same point upthread - it's a change in UEFA directives that is seeing all these soft handballs suddenly being penalised.

                                VAR is just there to confirm it.

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                                  #41
                                  I don't even think the penalty against Sissoko was a result of new directives, it was a plain old-fashioned handball. As someone said on here during the match, it could have been given in 1974.

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                                    #42
                                    I do still worry that VAR, especially in combination with directives that seem to be being implemented only at the elite level, is leading to a two tier system of refereeing the game. This was most crudely illustrated by the situation mentioned upthread where VAR was in operation for the FA Cup games at Premier League grounds but not the others which is farcical.
                                    Last edited by Ray de Galles; 06-06-2019, 09:43.

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                                      #43
                                      Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                      I don't even think the penalty against Sissoko was a result of new directives, it was a plain old-fashioned handball. As someone said on here during the match, it could have been given in 1974.
                                      'Could' have been, but probably wouldn't have been. I saw that comment, too, but - having once watched Francis Lee virtually carry the ball five feet in an England international - I rather doubt it.

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                                        #44
                                        It might not have been given in 1974 but it would have been given in 2010 or 1996 I reckon.

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                                          #45
                                          That'd be more likely, yes.

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                                            #46
                                            Originally posted by Simon G View Post
                                            I think it would be better with a review system - but it will only lead to managers kicking off when a decision goes against them and they've used all their reviews.
                                            Having wasted your reviews is your own fault, though. That is the beauty of it.
                                            Manager rants in press conference about bad decision. Journalist, po-faced, asked "So why didn't you review it?" Mangaer, angry, "Because we didn't have any left!" Journalist "And why was that?" Manager "..."

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                                              #47
                                              I would like it on record that I hated VAR before it was fashionable to hate it.

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                                                #48
                                                I think it's at least as important as the backpass rule, and people are going to bitch and moan about it, because it's new, and they're going to focus on individual events without noting the wider effects. (A bit like the way that there's a huge fuss every time a self driving car on autopilot kills someone. For instance there have been five deaths when people have been using the Tesla Autopilot feature, and that gets a lot of airtime. The thing remains though that that's 5 deaths for 1,500,000,000 miles driven. Whereas you'd expect that figure to be nearly 18 if it was people doing the driving. I strongly suspect that every new technological change is covered in much the same way)

                                                this is going to completely change football, but in gradual ways that people aren't going to attribute to VAR. The first thing it is going to do is make defending a lot more about positioning and organization, because at the moment you have a situation where defenders can afford to be sloppy or poorly positioned, and make up for it by accidentally leaving their hand out, or grabbing their opponent, when the ref isn't looking. That might seem like a small thing, but it will have a profoundly chilling effect on the careers of coaches who can't really coach defenders as a unit, and rely on defenders who in turn rely on the fog of war to get away with things. (Yes I mean you Jose mourinho, you fraudulent cunt) We saw its impact on set pieces at the world cup, and you could see that a bunch of teams didn't really have much idea what to do at a corner other than jump on Harry Kane's back.

                                                I don't have any problem with it being used for offside. I don't understand how the assistant referee get more than half their offside decisions right, and this helps them. Sure it delays the game, but it's usually for something very dramatic, and football actually stops a lot. they need to make it quicker though, and be a lot quicker to call over the ref when it looks a bit complicated. The thing that really contributes to the delay is the minute the ref stands there with his finger to his ear, before starting to make his move over to the tv screen. They just have to keep going with it.

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                                                  #49
                                                  The main problem with VAR is, well, human nature.

                                                  If it was just being used to right obvious wrongs, such as a player yards offside in the run up to a goal that the referee's assistant missed, the wrong player sent off, an off-the-ball punch that the referee didn't see, and so on, I expect that most of us would see it as a valuable addition to the game. But who wants to see just big mistakes reviewed; most people want all potential error to be examined. As a consequence, we're getting lengthy delays while marginal offsides are being looked at, "handball" incidents assessed and penalty box clashes adjudicated upon.

                                                  Given that TV companies have been doing this for decades are we really surprised that VAR is now doing the same.

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                                                    #50
                                                    At the moment, VAR is very laboured - as NS suggests, it's almost like bringing the minutiae of the post-match analysis into the match itself.

                                                    But it has to be given a chance to become streamlined. (Well, it will be given that chance - so, might as well get used to it.)

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