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    On technology: I agree with ursus that it and its use will only improve with time. I agree with 2006 World Cup final referee Horacio Elizondo, who I once sat down for a chat with, that technology will help referees in cases where the ruling is a matter of fact rather than interpretation (was the whole of the ball across the whole of the line? Was this or that player offside? Did that bloke hit that other bloke with a sucker punch off the ball while the ref's back was turned?).

    On offside, I agree with what Rory Smith has said a few times on Twitter recently: interpretations are difficult at present, and as such it's hard to criticise the ref or the linesman (I acted as a linesman for a game once, and I've never criticised one since, it's phenomenally difficult), but what we can question is the offside rule itself. It was introduced to prevent strikers from goalhanging. Disallowing a goal because a striker's big toe, or knee, or part of their shoulder, was offside, when that might not have been the case had the ball been released a twentieth of a second earlier (or, perhaps, later, depending on the running cadence of the striker and the defender they've just passed), was not what the offside rule was introduced for. There was a time, was there not, when the ruling was that there had to be 'daylight' between the last defender and the attacker? That seemed sensible. It prevented strikers from goalhanging, it allowed defenders to play an offside trap while still being punished if they ballsed it up, and it seemed like it gave defences a chance without unnecessarily strangling promising attacks. The reason for the current problems is that as the game has sped up, and as attackers in particular have got faster, and as new pressing models have resulted in more rapid turnovers of possession further up the pitch (making it harder for a linesman who finds himself running first one way and then the other to keep up), the offside rule has become more restrictive, moving from a requirement that a striker can't be clearly and entirely beyond the penultimate defender to a requirement that no part of the striker's body which can legally play the ball be so much as a milimetre beyond the penultimate defender. Increased speed coupled with a much finer criteria can only lead to more disallowed goals and more controversial decisions. And those disallowed goals aren't being disallowed due to violating the principle offside was actually brought in to protect.

    All of which is to say: whatever about VAR, but IFAB should go back to the 'daylight' version of the offside rule. That on its own would get rid of a lot of the most egregious calls.

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      For offside I'm of the opinion that if it is not immediately apparent from a freeze frame image that a player is offside then you stick with the on-field decision. In the FA Cup last year there was a delay of several minutes whilst VAR officials tried to work out whether the hairs on Juan Mata's knee were offside. This is just pointless time wasting.

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        I simply can't see what VAR adds to the game and I can see tonnes of ways in which it detracts from the game.

        It seems to be a "need" that has been pushed by the kinds of people who perceive everything through the lens of money "that decision has cost them 5 million pounds"

        I genuinely had an open mind about VAR but I can't see any benefits.

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          I'm a bit readier to give it a chance but...meh.

          As well as the cash obsession, people seem to think 'you' (referees, technology, whoever) can get every decision right, either instantly or by looking into that weird bidet-shaped TV thingy...

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            I'm quite a big fan of VAR and the way that it is currently being employed but conversely I wasn't that gung-ho for its introduction, as I accepted honestly-made errors as part of the game I'd always watched.

            The main problem now, though, is that rather than enjoy seeing VAR resolve obvious errors of mistaken identity, players yards offside, diving to win penalties or obvious fouls in he box that were missed, and so on, expectations of the technology have ascended to a level at which every hyper-marginal call is to be analysed until a final irreversible decision is made. Reasonable doubt has to be accepted, totally accepted, as part of any event review, at least until technological improvements have enhanced the process.

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              Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
              I simply can't see what VAR adds to the game and I can see tonnes of ways in which it detracts from the game.

              It seems to be a "need" that has been pushed by the kinds of people who perceive everything through the lens of money "that decision has cost them 5 million pounds"

              I genuinely had an open mind about VAR but I can't see any benefits.
              I'm with ad hoc here, I was resistant to change at first, as I always am, but I had a sneaking suspicion I'd be slowly won over. I've not seen anything to convince me.... far too many unsatisfactory marginal and/or objective decision breaking up the game for very little benefit. Perhaps limiting teams to 1-2 appeals per match would focus the mind, but as it is all it's doing is tearing at the soul of football

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                What NS said.

                VAR has also noticeably reduced the “mobbing” of referees in both Italy and Spain and has likely also reduced the long-standing “tradition” in both countries of “big” clubs getting more than their share of marginal calls.

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                  I thought that the 'mobbing of officials' had been outlawed years ago, tbh. (For the difference it's made, etc.)

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                    As a fan of a club that has been on the wrong end of far too many decisions in the Greatest League in the World (TM) then I'm all for it. Even though we somehow got away with an absolutely blatant one in the last game. (No, sit down Brighton fans, it wouldn't have magically turned a 0-2 deficit around. You can only score one at a time.)

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                      Snake’s view is quite common among supporters of “smaller” clubs in leagues where VAR has been introduced.

                      As to “mobbing”, yes, it is supposed to be illegal, but the rules are rarely enforced. VAR has actually reduced it noticeably.

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                        The main effects of VAR aren't going to be visible things that you can see that will be punished. It's just going to be that defenders have to cut out an awful lot of the gratuitous bollocks that they currently get away with in the penalty area. All the little tugs and kicks and barges that they get away with currently. In a more narrow sense This was how england got to a world cup semi final. Players currently play the game on the basis that they will likely get away with most things, particularly if the ref is looking the other way. And even if they get caught on camera doing the dirt, they won't get punished for it until this game is over. It all really depends on how rigorously they apply it.

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                          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                          As a fan of a club that has been on the wrong end of far too many decisions in the Greatest League in the World (TM) then I'm all for it. Even though we somehow got away with an absolutely blatant one in the last game. (No, sit down Brighton fans, it wouldn't have magically turned a 0-2 deficit around. You can only score one at a time.)
                          hahaha, that incident was as close as you're going to get though.

                          BTW, I get why the ref gave burnley a penalty, and I get why he allowed an advantage, but then wood (?) Screwed a fairly straightforward chance of a free shot into an open goal wide. Did the attacking team not get the advantage with the chance, or does it have to end in a goal?

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                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                            The main effects of VAR aren't going to be visible things that you can see that will be punished. It's just going to be that defenders have to cut out an awful lot of the gratuitous bollocks that they currently get away with in the penalty area. All the little tugs and kicks and barges that they get away with currently. In a more narrow sense This was how england got to a world cup semi final. Players currently play the game on the basis that they will likely get away with most things, particularly if the ref is looking the other way. And even if they get caught on camera doing the dirt, they won't get punished for it until this game is over. It all really depends on how rigorously they apply it.
                            What england did we in the world cup was to initiate contact and then react to the inevitable retaliation knowing full well VAR would only look at the last incident and rule on that.

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                              hah,.I would be slow to read that much intent into it, There was little need to initiate much. Most teams still defend corners primarily through wrestling, and paid the price. And if they didn't do the wrestling then they were allowing England's taller players a free header at goal, so they were caught either way. There is a way to defend set pieces without rugby tackling. It's just that it's tricky and requires a lot of work.

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                                I'm a bit baffled by the prevailing attitude in the press that Liverpool only have to turn up to beat Bayern Munich tomorrow.
                                It'd be a tough game anyway, but VVD is banned, Lovren is injured and Gomez is still recovering from having his ankle snapped. So we only have one actual central defender left and that's Joel Matip.
                                If, as expected Fabinho plays there that fucks up both the midfield AND the defence. Fab has been doing a good job screening the defence, so we'll miss him badly there.
                                I'd be tempted to play Henderson or Milner at the back and hope that Fab can mop up more in midfield.
                                Long story short, I'm not overly hopeful of going through this round.

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                                  Christ we are fucking doomed. Focusing on the league, etc

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                                    Yeah, we're doomed.

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                                      Based on a half where both sides could (and should) have scored?

                                      As I type Kimmich goes in the book for a clumsy challenge on Mane. Expect the ball to come more down the left than usual.

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                                        Not sure how that isn't handball, like.

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                                          It's a very enjoyable match, though I concede I may find it less enjoyable if I were a fan of either team

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                                            Liverpool looking way more likely at the moment.

                                            Which, of course, means a shit sandwich of a second half where they concede two and fail to make any pressure count.

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                                              Do Munich always play like this? There's a real hint of Juventus in the 90s about them, if you get my drift. All wide eyes, snarling and biting into tackles.

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                                                Kimmich is shouting because he knows his next lunge on Mane is his evening finished.

                                                Bayern Munich in "unpleasant" shocker.

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                                                  Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                                                  Do Munich always play like this? There's a real hint of Juventus in the 90s about them, if you get my drift. All wide eyes, snarling and biting into tackles.
                                                  That also describes how Jordan Henderson has been playing too

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                                                    Part of me quite likes the Heineken advert about missing the goal (the one that finishes with Pirlo getting a delivery) but away from the surface you quickly realise that it makes no sense. If your team scores when you weren't watching, your reaction is not to be depressed, but to still be massively excited and happy.

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