2019 Copa Libertadores

[cantagalo]

My knowledge of Colombian domestic football is largely limited to what I can glean from their clubs' participation in international competitions.

Millonarios and Junior are out in front but I was surprised to see both Independiente and Atlético Nacional languishing in lower mid-table. Also Santa Fe are yet to win a game, though they have drawn 10 of their 15 matches. I hope to see them next week in Bogotã.

The atmosphere at the Independiente game was very good but there are also some some very small teams. The Envigado game I saw was in a dilapidated one-sided ground with a crowd of less than a thousand.

[cantagalo]

My knowledge of Colombian domestic football is largely limited to what I can glean from their clubs' participation in international tournaments.

In the league, Millonarios and Junior are out in front but I was surprised to see Independiente and Atlético Nacional languishing in lower mid-table. Santa Fe are yet to win a game though they have drawn 10 of the 15 games. I hope to see them next week in Bogotá.

The atmosphere at the Independiente game was very good and perhaps aided by their 4-0 win, but there are also some small clubs in Série A. The Envigado game was in a rather dilapidated one-side ground with a crowd of less than a thousand.

[danielmak]

DIM made it to the final last semester, losing to Junior on away goals. So, they were ok at that point. Atl Nacional has dropped fast after some really excellent seasons (domestically and on the continent). Of course, part of that fall can be attributed to losing players. But part can also be linked to buying poorly with the money made from the sales. Then there is the usual coaching carousel. Jorge Almiron was somehow not good enough for them but has San Lorenzo doing very well in the Libertadores (I can't speak to SL's league play).

As for Santa Fe. Well, the scoring drought is a couple years old at this point. Even their domestic titles and Sudamericana championship were won with good defense and scoring just enough (esp. at home). I haven't watched them this semester but I'm not surprised that things have not changed.

[danielmak]

La Equidad play in Bogota. Their second leg Sudamericana match was part of a series of second leg matches that went to penalties. During those games the world was treated to some of the worst penalty kicks in the history of professional football. I'm guessing you didn't get to that La Equidad-Independiente CG match, cantagalo. If so, you could have seen a keeper that deserved about 6 yellow cards for unsportsmanliked conduct (La Equidad) and players who should have to return their salaries for their penalty choices (Independiente CG). Scroll to 1:20 to see the worst of the bunch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_lMtPXBlIs

[cantagalo]

I'm off to the Santa Fe game this evening. They actually won on Wednesday night at Atlético Huila!

I missed seeing Atlético Nacional as they moved the game to Thursday at very short notice.

You're right about the penalties. There was another Sudamericana game recently (I forget which) where a player tried a Panenka penalty which was so bad the keeper caught it at chest height....while sitting on the ground. And Zulia beat Potosi by just 2-0 in a shoot-out.

[danielmak]

The Paneka is the one I referenced in my post above (video link). It's brutal.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Bloody Panenkas! If you're going to bank on the goalie diving to the side, but trying to leave his legs covering part of the centre of the goal at around 2-3ft off of the ground, and want to play a controlled shot rather that risking a blast, just hit it firmly and quite high down the middle. You're much more likely to make a mess of a chip, either by getting too much height in the loop or hitting it too softly. The only thing to recommend it is that it suggests insouciance and looks mega-cool. If it comes off.

[jason voorhees]

Their second leg Sudamericana match was part of a series of second leg matches that went to penalties. During those games the world was treated to some of the worst penalty kicks in the history of professional football. I'm guessing you didn't get to that La Equidad-Independiente CG match, cantagalo. If so, you could have seen a keeper that deserved about 6 yellow cards for unsportsmanliked conduct (La Equidad) and players who should have to return their salaries for their penalty choices (Independiente CG). Scroll to 1:20 to see the worst of the bunch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_lMtPXBlIs

Independiente CG is a little cutey team on the way to the airport. I saw when they qualified for the SudaMericana on the same day they were relegated, but their stadium is cool and they're trying to carve a niche out of the other parts of Asuncion.

[cantagalo]

The Paneka is the one I referenced in my post above (video link). It's brutal.

So it was! Getting confused in my old age.

Santa Fe lost to a late goal to Deportivo Cali last night making it just one win out of 17. Cali had significant away support which improved the atmosphere. In all three games I've seen, I've been quite impressed with Colombian teams' willingness to attack, building from the back. Arguably, the entertainment value is higher than in most Brazilian games.

[cantagalo]

Sensational added time winner for bottom of the league Rio Negro against Atlético Nacional. A free kick by keeper Luis Delgado!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGS5CaO9jGo

[jason voorhees]

Hilarious Godoy Cruz-Sporting Cristal game. For one, some jabroni let Sporting play in a bluish grey, and Godoy to play in Royal Blue, and it's absolutely impossible to watch or tell what's happening (shades of that "color rush" game in the NFL when those with color blindness simply could not tell the teams apart.) Then SCris gave up two penalties in injury time, the first saved by the keeper and the second finally going in.

Libertad lost at the Defensores Del Chaco to Gremio, the first Paraguayan loss in 11 games. Gremio hops above U de Catolica who play Rosario Central later.

U de Concepcion proved to be a lot better than they seemed against Sporting Cristal, and had 2-0 and 3-2 leads on Olimpia (who admittedly had only 2 days of rest since Saturday night's Superclassico win,) but Roque Santa Cruz and Nestor Camacho wiped out the 2-0 halftime lead and Olimpia's fabled bench got the injury time equalizer for a 3-3 final.

Emelec has a dramatic win vs Huracan to go 2nd behind Cruzeiro. I'm going to bed.

[cantagalo]

I see what you mean about that colour clash. Difficult to watch.

Just seen the wretched, managerless Atlético-MG finally put out of their misery by a really nice late, lobbed goal by Nacional.

Grêmio are back in control of their destiny with two Everton (Little Onion) Cebolinha goals beat Libertad. He's been Grêmio's best player since the mysterious decline of Luan in the last 18 months. His nickname can be explained by his
haircut.

Cruzeiro made it 5 wins out of 5 beating Deportivo Lara in an empty stadium. Another goal from Fred!

[cantagalo]

One disconcerting feature of this year's Libertadores is that fixtures in the group stages are not alternately home and away.

Flamengo finish with two away games. I've been thinking they should qualify comfortably but if they lose tonight at altitude to LDU, they may require something from their final game at group leaders Peñarol.

[cantagalo]

Well Flamengo did get beaten. 2-1 at LDU. They are equal on 9 points with Peñarol who lost at altitude to San Jose, meaning they need a draw or win at Peñarol to qualify, assuming that LDU beat San Jose at home. If that is the case a draw will be enough for Flamengo but not for Peñarol.

Athletico-PR were somewhat unfortunate to lose at Jorge Wilsterman but Boca's comeback to draw 2-2 at Tolima means they qualify and can relax in their final game at Boca.

Internacional and River confirmed their qualifications with away wins at Alianza Lima and Palestino respectively. Big excitement in Peru for the return of Guerrero but he was subbed at half-time.

[Sam]

One disconcerting feature of this year's Libertadores is that fixtures in the group stages are not alternately home and away.

I saw a Twitter thread about this last night. I'd noticed the change from the previous 1-2-3-3-2-1 opponent lineup in the groups, but hadn't realised that in each group, there's one team who play matches 2, 3 and 4 at home and another who play those same matches away. This guy went through, identified each one (if I remember rightly, in Group A it was Inter who had three in a row at home and Palestino who had them away), and outlined how many points they'd picked up from those matches and how close they were to qualification or elimination. In almost every single case, the team with three home games in a row needed a single point, or at a push two, from their last two games to qualify, and I think there was only one team who got more than two points from their three straight away matches – all the others were either mathematically, or all but, eliminated before the last two match rounds began. In a continent with such huge travel times and such a wide variety of conditions to play in (the humidity of the Colombian coastal teams, the altitude of Quito and Bolivia, etc. etc.), this new way of putting the group fixtures together has left some teams fucked before they could even begin.

Imagine a side like Bolívar being given three consecutive home matches in the group stage!

[danielmak]

I posted about this home and away problem on another forum and forgot to raise that issue here as well. But Liga played three games away. And, although they have a chance to make it, I don't think they will. If Flamengo and Penarol tie and Liga win then I assume it comes down to goal difference. I'd be surprised if Liga will catch either side. So, Liga, who are usually very strong at home (that was the recipe for their Libertadores and Sudamericana titles--clobber the team at home and dig in on the road) were basically going home with not much chance to get out of the group. CONMEBOL really seem to do whatever they can to break what wasn't broke.

Also, although the Paraguayan sides have certainly surprised this time around, I think this home and away scheduling foolishness links with a year-long tournament to make it very difficult for smaller sides like Nacional (PAR) or Ind del Valle to make it to the final. When the Libertadores took place during one semester and the Sudamericana took place during another semester, smaller sides were immune from bigger sides coming in and buying their best players. Although all sides are in danger of losing players to Europe, the smaller teams also lose players to Mexico, Brasil, and Argentina. I can't see that Cerro Porteno, Libertad, or Penarol (among others) will look the same when the transfer window opens. While Palmeiras, River, and Gremio (I'm assuming Gremio's excellence in the last game is the start of something) might also lose players, they can re-stock or have depth. Add to all of that a single final and a side like Ind del Valle is not likely to get to a semi-final and really would have no hope in a one-game final. I think we're in year 3 of the year-long Libertadores and Sudamericana so we'll see how this plays out, but I would look for an even greater Brasil-Argentina monopoly of titles. And I'd mostly expect the Argentina portion of that duopoly to come from Boca and River. It's very difficult for sides from smaller nations to keep a competitive team together for a year and that's what is required to win the Libertadores in this new format.

[danielmak]

And to add to the general criticism of CONMEBOL, the organization is apparently in talks with MLS and Liga MX about adding teams from both to the 2020 Libertadores. CONCACAF Champions League is now much shorter, basically starting at the 1/8 Final. But this is certainly disappointing news. I somewhat enjoyed Mexican sides but that mostly selfish: more TV coverage.

[cantagalo]

Oh dear. I wonder at whose expense those US and Mexican teams would enter. The obvious way would be to cut down on Brazil and Argentina's generous allocation of places but that might not please the accountants.

Meanwhile, I'd like to send out a message to Conmebol, Concacaf, FIFA, UEFA, the FA and the EFL. Just leave our fucking competitions alone!

[danielmak]

Although I found WC 2018 to be really exciting (partially influenced by watching so many games in a Barcelona bar with people from around the world), most of the tournaments that had been so exciting are becoming less so. The reason I like the Libertadores so much is that it is very, very difficult to pick a winner. As I posted above, I fear that might change now that the tournament is year-long versus only running for a semester. Whereas almost every other tournament has clear favorites and those favorites usually make it to the 1/4 final. Meanwhile UEFA has bloated the Euros (3/4 of each group gets through), CAF has now bloated CAN (which was my favorite national team tournament), the Gold Cup runs too often, Copa America features too many teams outside the Americas.

Sudamericana and Europa League include teams that drop down getting yet another bite at the apple.

So, I agree, they are bloating tournaments when the tournaments should be left alone.

[cantagalo]

In case people missed it, the final round of group matches was completed last week and the draw for the knockout stage is tonight.

There seemed to be a larger number of groups than usual already decided to make it a particularly exciting round but Flamengo hung on with 10 men for a 0-0 draw at Peñarol to eliminate the Uruguayans at the expense of LDU and Grêmio beat Universidade Católica to qualify as runners up to Libertad. The Brazil/Argentina clashes ended with Internacional, Palmeiras and Boca leading their groups at the expense of River, San Lorenzo and Athletico.

The 16 remaining teams are distributed as follows:

Brazil 6
Argentina 4
Paraguay 3
Ecuador 2
Uruguay 1

Eleven out of the sixteen are former winners.

A disappointingly narrow spread of teams, particularly the absence of Chileans and Colombians.

[jason voorhees]

In case the game numbers mean something in terms of knockout stages, I'll post them.

The Copa Sudamericana 2nd Round Draw....

1 - La Equidad (COL) vs Deportivo Santani (PARAGUAY)
2 - Ind. Del Val. (ECU) vs U Catolica (CHI)
3 - FLU (BRA) vs Atletico Nacional (COL)
4 - Union Española (CHI) v Sporting Cristal (PER)
5 - Argentinos Jrs (ARG) vs Deportes Tolima (COL)
6 - Montevideo Wanderers (URU) vs Atletico Cerro (URU)
7 - U Catolica (ECU) vs Melgar (PER)
8- Union Calera (CHI) vs Atletico Mineiro (BRA)
-----------
9- Sol De America (PAR) vs Botafogo (BRA)
10 - Rionegro Aguilas (COL) vs Independiente (ARG)
11 - Corinthians (BRA) vs Deportivo Lara (VEN)
12 - CA River Plate (URU) Colon (ARG)
13 - Zulia FC (VEN) vs Palestino (CHI)
14 - Deportivo Cali (COL) vs Peñarol (URU)
15 - Liverpool (URU) vs Caracas FC (VEN)
16 - Royal Pari (BOL) vs Macará (ECU)

[jason voorhees]

Left Side of the Copa Libertadores Bracket
A
River Plate vs Cruzeiro
winner plays
H
San Lorenzo vs Cerro Porteño

D
Olimpia vs LDU Quito
winner plays
E
Atletico Paranaense vs Boca Juniors

AH plays DE

Right Side of the Bracket, or at least what they posted
B
Godoy Cruz vs Palmeiras
winner plays
G
Gremio vs Libertad

C
Emelec vs Flamengo
winner plays
F
Nacional (URU) vs Internacional (Porto Alegre)


BG plays CF

Or at least that's what I can discern from the picture. Maybe there's another draw after the semis

[jason voorhees]

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

That draw has the possibility for the top 2 QFs to be all Argentina - Paraguay, and the bottom 2 QFs to be all-Brazil. ALMOST like they wanted it that way ...

[cantagalo]

I'd say the chances of four Brazilian quarter-finalists on the right-hand side of the draw is fairly high, as is one all-Argentinian QF on the left side. I'm not calling a conspiracy though. Such an outcome was always likely when the two countries provide 10 of the 16 teams.

The method of the draw was changed this year. Instead of ranking their group records and 1 automatically playing 16, 2 playing 15 etc, they split them into two pots, a top 8 and a bottom 8 and then had a free draw from there. I suppose it provided a nice junket in Paraguay for the Conmebol bigwigs.

One unfortunate outcome (though it could also have happened under the former method) is that we have a repetition of two of the group matches - Boca v Athletico and Grêmio v Libertad.

This year is the first to have a single match final. It's in Santiago but there won't be a Chilean team with an unfair home advantage, a problem which could occur in future years.