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    Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

    As a Pompey fan you'd probably expect me to argue against video technology being introduced into the game. Not just in light of the decisions made in our favour on Sunday, but also the clear goal Birmingham had chalked off against us in the quarter final too!

    Following the semi-finals at the weekend, many of the comments I've seen (in the press / on fans forums etc.) that support video technology go along the lines of: "there is so much at stake in the modern game that the correct decision needs to be made."

    Now, I'm 32 and have been attending football matches for about 17 years - basically the era of the Premier League. But I don't imagine that fans going to games before the 1990's cared any less about the result for their team than I do when I watch Pompey play. I'm sure that defeat hurt as much, that the ref was the focal point for the anger of both sets of fans, that there was debate in the pub after the game.

    The idea that "there is so much at stake in the modern game that the correct decision needs to be made" should really read something like: "there is so much money at stake in the modern game..." I'm sick to death of the mainstream-media driven notion that modern day football is more 'worthy' than in the past (I'm similarly sick of the way they patronise lower league and non-league football.)

    Far from video technology being the answer to the perceived problem of refs making the wrong decision, is the answer not that there needs to be less at stake financially in football? Or is it just the inevitable march of progress - that even if there were no financial stakes, fans would still want technology to help get the right decision?

    Personally I am against technology being introduced, because often even with a thousand TV replays from a thousand angles it isn't possible to get a consensus on what the right decision would have been in a given situation. There is always interpretation.

    To go back to the semi-final against Spurs, I was sat behind the goal and had a great view of both the Crouch no-goal and the penalty call. My instinct at the time was that the goal should have stood, and that Palacios got a toe on the ball before taking down Dindane. Looking at replays, I still feel the same, but have read and heard some very good arguements from neutral fans and pundits that, depending on how you read the laws of the game, the ref got both decisions right.

    My one concesion to technology might be for goal-line decisions - a 'chip' in the ball or something similar. Going back to the quarter final against Birmingham there was no way the ref or linesman could have seen what was happening through a crowd of players. I'm also undecided on retrospective punishment of players.

    Anyway... thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

    #2
    Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

    Hear hear!

    I think the debate in the other thread where even after repeated slow motion viewings of the Terry tackle on Milner we couldn't agree whether Terry had got the ball or not (though he did!) highlights that video technology simply isn't going to be the easy solution that some people think.

    Comment


      #3
      Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

      Speaking as a Liverpool fan, I think that the 5th and 6th officials are a great idea now.

      Without them, Carragher probably would have gotten away with the handball in the first leg and Kuyt's goal at Anfield would not have stood. It's clear that with them, there are less errors while taking nothing away from the human side of the game at all. There are still mistakes, but there always were and even with video technology there always will be.

      Having said that, I think goal line technology would be a great addition.

      Comment


        #4
        Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

        I don't think in a case like the terry incident that the ball matters at all when judging whether a tackle is reckless. you're not worrying about the ball's health and safety when a centre half is flying through the air, with a straight leg and his studs up.

        There are two arguments used in this issue. The first is that top flight football is actually just the apex of the whole football pyramid, and you need consistent rules all the way through. This is the tricky one to deal with, as it is pretty consistent. I think though that by having 6 officials in europa cup games, uefa have left themselves a little gap there if they really wanted to do this.

        The other argument concerns the supporting the referee's decision as being final. However every referee will freely admit that they make mistakes, and that it is impossible for them to see everything from every angle.

        In other words, I'm not sure that the referee's authority is undermined if after the match another video angle reveals an incident of serious foul play. It doesn't affect the referee's status or reputation on the pitch, it just increases the likelihood of a player being punished for dangerous behaviour, making you less likely to indulge in it. And if there are fewer sneaky off the ball elbows, it just makes the referees job easier in the long run.

        The only thing that will properly cut down on this is if you have a consistent rule that basically says that even if you get away with it on the pitch, you will definitely get at least a three match ban afterwards.

        It has to be applied rigorously so that you don't wind up with a situation where rio ferdinand was correctly banned for clattering craig fagan, while javier mascherano and steven gerrard got away with doing exactly the same thing.

        I'm not saying this as a poor man utd thing. it's just the most recent example. For instance Paul Scholes would be motivated to not threaten people's careers every time he makes a tackle, if he was picking up three week bans every time he did it. All the teams that man utd played when he should really have been suspended suffered in that instance.

        Similarly I have little truck with arguments that you will essentially lose something from the game, if you try and stop aggressive players from doing violent dangerous things.

        For instance I kept hearing that you would lose something from wayne rooney's game if you took out most of the shouting, and nearly all of the mindless violence. It turned out to be that the bit you lost was the bit that distracted him and stopped him from being one of the best players I've ever seen.

        If he'd been appropriately punished for all of his insane lunges and pointless abuse of referees he could have been like this years ago. I've always thought that he was cursed by being an england international. If he'd been Irish, or welsh, he wouldn't have been indulged anywhere near as much.

        Similarly when eric cantona came back from kicking matthew simmons and was booked only once the following season, he played like a superhero, and won the league nearly single handed.

        I think that Fifa are right to think that the sameness of football needs to be preserved. That's a good instinct for them to have. But I think that they have to realise that television has fundamentally changed how people relate to football. If where resources allow, football acts to stamp out examples of violent and reckless play on television, by making it unacceptable, and a zero tolerance offence, then that will feed down through all of football.

        Think of the positive impact of all those kids out there trying to imitate lionel messi, or cristiano ronaldo, or thierry henry. If people see john terry getting away with that kind of tackle they're more likely to think that throwing yourself like a missile is part of being a lionheart defender.

        Comment


          #5
          Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

          With you on this Leon except I don't see the need for any sort of goal line 'technology' either. Utterly pointless.
          In going to a match it is understood your team might lose, fuck up, be robbed or nab a spawny one.
          Its not a trip to the shops or cinema where you keep your receipt & can protest your consumer rights or you feel aggreived in some way if the product does not meet your demands. If you can't handle this like an adult, don't bloody go, play on the xbox or something instead.

          Comment


            #6
            Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

            what about guys nearly maiming each other boris?

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              #7
              Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

              TMK, I wasn't saying that it mattered in the Terry example whether he got the ball or not to the dangerousness of the tackle, just that whether a defender gets the ball or not is a pretty fundamental matter in a lot of disputed decisions, and if it isn't clear in replays then that negates their value significantly.

              I agree on retrospective video reviews.

              Comment


                #8
                Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                If where resources allow, football acts to stamp out examples of violent and reckless play on television, by making it unacceptable, and a zero tolerance offence, then that will feed down through all of football.
                I agree wholeheartedly. This should be extended to players who fish for penalties or feign injury in the hope of getting an opponent booked or sent off.

                Referees will make mistakes along with everyone else on the pitch, but television does not exonerate them the way it exonerates players who screw up. No one (except me, it seems) is prepared to have fewer TV cameras present at major events, which might lessen the chance of the referee's authority being undermined. This seems the only alternative.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                  The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
                  what about guys nearly maiming each other boris?
                  Let the ref sort it out. Linesmen can advise, everyone can abide by the decision & fucking well lump it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                    The Exploding Vole wrote:
                    Referees will make mistakes along with everyone else on the pitch, but television does not exonerate them the way it exonerates players who screw up. No one (except me, it seems) is prepared to have fewer TV cameras present at major events, which might lessen the chance of the referee's authority being undermined. This seems the only alternative.
                    I'd support the less-cameras-at-games approach.

                    As well as Pompey I see a bit of Havant & Waterlooville in the Conference South. Supporters of H&W get just as upset about perceived refereeing mistakes as Pompey fans. But generally H&W fans have a moan about it, give the officials some verbal grief, and move on. They don't have the, err..., 'luxury' of pundits and hacks helping them to make excuses for why their team messed up; putting their club in the spotlight to help make them feel more important than the lower-league riff raff.

                    Generally speaking, the H&W fans I know blame their manager and players for bad results far more readily than fans of Premier League clubs I know. The latter will blame the ref, the pitch, the weather, the team's chef, Sepp Blatter, their granny, a fify year hoo-doo over a particular team, the car-park attendant that was a jobsworth and had it in for them that day, Cheryl Cole, and fellow supporters (pretty much in that order) before getting to the people who have the most influence over the result: i.e. the players and manager.

                    An aside: If 'top flight' players were paid less, would we expect less of them? Would the technology debate even exist if there was less money in the game?

                    The key question for me is the motivation for bringing in technology. And if it did ever come in, I'm sure it wouldn't be done for sporting reasons or to protect the integrity of the competition. We already have league system that does everything it can to protect the top 5% of clubs at the expense of all others.

                    Another aside: The Champions League only exacerbates this. I'm happy there are no English teams in the semis this year: a few more seasons like this and maybe the bubble really will burst and we can get back to talking about sport rather than finance.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                      just that whether a defender gets the ball or not is a pretty fundamental matter in a lot of disputed decisions, and if it isn't clear in replays then that negates their value significantly.

                      I was thinking though mostly of using it in situations of violent play like elbows, or reckless dangerous tackles, or just sneaky nastiness.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                        As the basis for a post-facto review, or within a match?

                        I would support expanding the concept of using video evidence for post-match disciplinary reviews, including situations in which the officials think that they saw the incident, but subsequently change their mind on the basis of the video.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                          that's exactly what I would suggest. If you know you're definitely going to get punished, you won't do it. It would have to be after the game because you don't want to interfere with what is happening on the pitch. I'm sure that when stuart atwell saw the video of gerrard clattering that guy in the back of the head, he felt like a right eejit for just booking him.

                          We accept that referees can make mistakes, and they should be allowed to change their mind afterwards without their judgement being questioned, because they can only call what they see.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                            The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
                            We accept that referees can make mistakes, and they should be allowed to change their mind afterwards without their judgement being questioned, because they can only call what they see.
                            I'm not sure that's true. A lot of bile seems to be produced in the wake of decisions at major tournaments - particularly when national pride is at stake.

                            Urs Meier leaps to mind.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                              Im pro "goal line technology" and "retrospective video analysis", Im anti "in game video analysis".
                              In fact Ive been banging on about "retrospective red n yellow cards" since buying my first video recorder in the very early 80s.....as my then workmates would testify.
                              Itll happen eventually.

                              Match videos should be viewed post game by a "Retrospective Reffing" commitee of ex-refs, ex-players and ex-managers. They'd be empowered to dish out retrospective red n yellow cards even if the ref has already "acted" on the incident.
                              Currently (I believe)the FA can only act if a ref admits to not seeing an incident.
                              Which is ridiculous as the refs have a vested interest in denying missing anything. Any ref who owned up to missing half a dozen incidents a game would soon find himself dropping down a few divisions.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                                So will there be videos in extra-preliminary?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Video technology debate, post-FA Cup semi-finals

                                  The KNVB have just announced that they will be experimenting with video technology in next season's Beker tournament.

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