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**The Awesome Berbaslug!!!** · 13-05-2008, 11:02

The only thing that we learn from history...

Not really. The united fans let 300 people into a half empty stadium without crush fences etc. While not I doubt there will be even 300 ticketless fans in moscow. It's such a fucking pointlessly stupid place to host a Champions league final largely because it is so unspeakably difficult to get there.

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 11:06

The only thing that we learn from history...

So football fans are reliable arbiters of health and safety such that they should be allowed to open emergency exits at matches to people who have not paid an entrance fee at their discretion?

**The Awesome Berbaslug!!!** · 13-05-2008, 11:08

The only thing that we learn from history...

nah, it's a relatively small thing and very unlikely to happen at any other time, certainly not in moscow.

(there was supposed to be "exactly best practice" there between not and I doubt there.)

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 11:09

The only thing that we learn from history...

I should perhaps add that my deja vu/foreboding remark applied really to the Russian situation rather than the Wigan incident, which simply alarmed me.

**Ray de Galles** · 13-05-2008, 11:10

The only thing that we learn from history...

I saw the same article and was very concerned. Statto, I presume it's terms like "choke points" that worres you as it does me? This further down the article seems even worse;

"In January and February we installed a new tourniquet system [in which fans are constricted into narrow lanes] similar to the one used in other European stadiums.

I am sure it is just heavy-handed and insensitive language but it seems to denote a worrying attitude.

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 11:14

The only thing that we learn from history...

Quite so, Fred. As far as I can tell on a brief survey choke points at stadiums are generally considered to be a natural crowd phenomenon to be avoided rather than an established method of managing entry. I think it's an alarming attitude to be adopting in public and so much would depend on how it was stewarded on the ground at the time as well as things like are there any nearby dodgy fences that allow you simply to circumvent the wonderful tourniquet system.

**The Awesome Berbaslug!!!** · 13-05-2008, 11:16

The only thing that we learn from history...

well they learned a lot about crowd control in chechnya. maybe they plan on holding troublemakers in specially dug pits in the ground, and then filling them in rather than having to deal with all that pesky paperwork.

**Ray de Galles** · 13-05-2008, 11:19

The only thing that we learn from history...

An interesting point when talking about ticketless fans is that I have been told by a Stamford Bridge season ticket holder who is going to Moscow that neither club has so far sold out their allocation for the final and ,Chelsea at least, do not expect to.

Any idea on that, Liquidator?

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 11:23

The only thing that we learn from history...

That will certainly help security, Fred, if not the atmosphere. Even so, problems could still arise if all the fans attempt the traditional English ritual of entering the ground two minutes before kick-off.

**Ray de Galles** · 13-05-2008, 11:26

The only thing that we learn from history...

I was more making the point that , if the information above is correct, then a concentration on stopping ticketless fans and not general crowd safety might be even more irresponsible.

**ursus arctos** · 13-05-2008, 11:34

The only thing that we learn from history...

The terminology ("choke points", "tourniquets") seems to be designed to create alarm. Here we call them "screening areas" and "turnstiles", and there weren't any serious issues when c. 10,000 Liverpool (or Arsenal) supporters came to Meazza for the Champions League.

It's also been my experience that English supporters travelling abroad turn up at the grounds significantly earlier than they do at home, even when they are not strongly encouraged/required to do so.

I'm really surprised that Chelsea haven't sold out their allocation. Perhaps their support really isn't comprised of the hordes of arriviste newbies that are so often described.

**The Awesome Berbaslug!!!** · 13-05-2008, 11:39

The only thing that we learn from history...

I think it's just too difficult and expensive to go to moscow. it's one of the few venues in europe where travelling to a third country and travelling over land just isn't an option, and the number of airlines able to use russian airspace is severely limited

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 11:45

The only thing that we learn from history...

According to Chelsea they've sold out all bar a few Thomas Cook packages.

http://chelsea2.chelseafc.com/popups/ticket_availability.htm

The slightly more removed concern is that many people may have snapped these up in the expectation of selling them on, but can't find buyers and don't intend to go themselves.

**Crusoe** · 13-05-2008, 11:48

The only thing that we learn from history...

The Russian authorities haven't exactly been going out of their way to reassure fans that they're going to get a wonderful match-day experience though, have they? Witness all of those bloody news stories about OMON recruits doing sit-ups on broken-glass while instructors drop bayonets on them.

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 11:50

The only thing that we learn from history...

Surely they should have dropped celery instead?

**Ball Comrade** · 13-05-2008, 11:57

The only thing that we learn from history...

There are always stories like that about OMON. That's the whole point of OMON. While they are a bunch of cunts and don't much care about legal niceties, they surely won't treat English fans like Kasparov and the National Bolsheviks.

AIATL:It's a piece of piss to get to Moscow from Helsinki. It's a European final and if people can't get to that bit of Europe they can watch it on the telly.

**Ray de Galles** · 13-05-2008, 12:00

The only thing that we learn from history...

statto99 wrote:

According to Chelsea they've sold out all bar a few Thomas Cook packages.

http://chelsea2.chelseafc.com/popups/ticket_availability.htm

The slightly more removed concern is that many people may have snapped these up in the expectation of selling them on, but can't find buyers and don't intend to go themselves.

Allegedly, according to the ST holder, the packages remaining with Thomas Cook number about 4000 of the clubs allocation.

**Jorge Porbillas** · 13-05-2008, 12:58

The only thing that we learn from history...

I endured Moscow's "choke system" - if that's what it was called back then - when Wales played Russia for the Euro 2004 play-offs.
It consisted of two police horses arse to arse blocking the path ... every so often the horses would move forward allowing an arbitary number of fans through before the coppers backed up their horses again - you had to decide pretty damn quick which side of the horse you prefered to be!

**My Name Is Ian** · 13-05-2008, 15:06

The only thing that we learn from history...

My brother-in-law (who is a Chelsea member, but not a season ticket holder) apparently had no trouble getting a ticket last weekend.

**ale** · 13-05-2008, 20:26

The only thing that we learn from history...

where to draw the line though...nobody wants a repeat of last years final when ticketless Liverpool fans weren't deterred by flimsy security measures and got access to the stadium at the expense of fans who actually had tickets

**EIM** · 13-05-2008, 20:54

The only thing that we learn from history...

twohundredpercent wrote:

My brother-in-law (who is a Chelsea member, but not a season ticket holder) apparently had no trouble getting a ticket last weekend.

All Chelsea fans are members, if you ask me.

**statto99** · 13-05-2008, 22:07

The only thing that we learn from history...

I notice with interest that Nike's advertising is now referring to Cristiano Ronaldo's attempts to secure "The Double". Is this official confirmation that the FA Cup is the new League Cup and the League Cup is the new Full Members Cup?

**Ray de Galles** · 20-05-2008, 15:51

The only thing that we learn from history...

The Times

May 20, 2008

Empty seats in Moscow as fans shun pricey trip

Oliver Kay

It has been billed as the English invasion of Moscow. But, to the embarrassment of Uefa and its sponsors, the Champions League final will take place against a backdrop of empty seats. The prohibitive travel costs have meant that Manchester United, the world's best-supported club, have failed to sell their 21,000 ticket allocation.

The Luzhniki Stadium holds almost 85,000 spectators for most events, but even with its capacity reduced to 69,500 for this match, Uefa, European football's governing body, has been unable to sell all the tickets. Telephone calls to the Old Trafford ticket office shortly before closing last night revealed that United had �73 and �120 tickets on general sale and while Chelsea, in their first final, claimed that they had sold their allocation, the London club's official website indicated that there was still �limited availability� for two-night packages through their favoured travel partners.

**ursus arctos** · 20-05-2008, 17:26

The only thing that we learn from history...

Brian Oliver of the Guardian must be shopping in different places:

"If there are spare tickets on the market they will be snapped up by the Russians. Locals are expected to pay �2,000 and are coughing up - and one deal I witnessed yesterday was, according to the man holding the VIP tickets, worth �40,000. It was done in a restaurant where a half-decent bottle of wine cost more than �100. There are plenty who can afford the touts' prices."

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