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The further decline of Paul Gascoigne

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    Not guilty
    Former footballer acquitted of sexual assault but jury still considering alternative charge

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      Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
      Ah, a fellow R's fan returns! Not before time.
      Yay, I have been doing my quota of R's games this season, even went a bit mad in August and did an away one. Bristol city

      Comment


        Originally posted by Vicarious Thrillseeker View Post
        Not guilty
        Probably the correct verdict as Gascoigne was being aggressive rather than sexual and the law only applies to the latter. There ought to be a law such as the 'battery' one in the US that should include such personal intrusion without it having to be sexual. I doubt whether that would warrant a jail sentence but I could see a case for damages (or maybe I've been in the US too long?).

        Hopefully the experience will lead to Gascoigne getting intensive therapy, if he's not already doing so.

        Comment


          How is the US battery different from the UK battery, Satchmo?

          Comment


            My post was rather rash. On further investigation, England has a battery law; Scotland does not. In the US, it varies by state.

            EDIT: I think what I was trying to express in my post was that Gascoigne should have been tried on the grounds that the kiss caused harm, not that he intended to cause harm, but it's not clear to me whether the English battery law would permit that.

            To give an idea of how much more sweeping the US law can be, this is apparently the Florida one:

            A battery is simply touching someone against his or her will OR causing bodily harm to someone. You do not have to actually hurt someone to be convicted of battery.

            ...

            The crime of battery is subjective. In other words, if defendant A hits victim with X amount of force and the person does not suffer a severe injury because of it, it is just a simple misdemeanor battery. However, if defendant B hits victim with the same amount of force but his victim suffers severe injury, it is a felony battery. This is commonly referred to as the eggshell skull theory – you take your victim as you find them. It does not seem fair to punish the second defendant for the same conduct, does it? Nevertheless, that is the law.
            https://www.fighterlaw.com/practice-...t-and-battery/

            I'd be interested in Ursus' view.
            Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 17-10-2019, 20:23.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post

              Hopefully the experience will lead to Gascoigne getting intensive therapy, if he's not already doing so.
              I hate to say it but that doesn't seem to have been the case with the other unpleasant incidents he's been involved with over the years so I'm not too hopeful this time either.
              Last edited by Ray de Galles; 18-10-2019, 12:38.

              Comment


                Battery isn't charged on its own that often here (usually being paired with assault or another crime), but yes, that does strike me as an easier case to make under these circumstances. We were taught that "offensive touching" was the core of the principle in New York.

                Comment


                  In criminal cases, New York statutes charge people with assault. There is no criminal battery in New York. Under New York penal law, the definition of assault is intentionally striking another person, and causing injury to that person. Assault and battery are two different torts that are in civil cases, although there can be an overlap between the two. In terms of criminal cases, people are only charged with assault

                  https://www.newyorktriallawyers.org/...fined-new-york

                  Comment


                    I suppose what we often do in the aftermath of such debatable verdicts is think of the penalty the accused probably deserved here then retro-fit it to a law we can find in either the UK or US (or maybe Europe and Canada also). It's not how law is done or should be done but it's how we feel when placing ourselves in the victim's shoes.

                    In Gascoigne's case, I'm on the fence between a heavy punitive fine or 6-9 months in the nick, but I doubt there's a law that fits that. The prosecution clearly set itself too tough a target by going for a crime that carries a maximum 10 year penalty.

                    Comment


                      Sporting, sometimes I forget how long ago it was that I studied for the bar exam. "Offensive touching" must have been from my Criminal Law class at law school (which was even longer ago).

                      Satchmo, I tend to think that it wouldn't have been prosecuted here, and that instead the victim would have brought a civil suit that would have been settled for a non-trivial amount.

                      Comment


                        Well, kissing while inebriated random women. What's the ideal penalty for that?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post

                          Satchmo, I tend to think that it wouldn't have been prosecuted here, and that instead the victim would have brought a civil suit that would have been settled for a non-trivial amount.
                          Would the fact that a well-known person was involved make any difference in how the case was brought?

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                            Well, kissing while inebriated random women. What's the ideal penalty for that?
                            A "non-trivial amount" of compensation, depending on how the kiss was done.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Sporting View Post

                              Would the fact that a well-known person was involved make any difference in how the case was brought?
                              It shouldn't, of course, but there is a definite chance that it would.

                              And that can cut both ways. It is now quite clear that Trump has committed dozens of sexual assaults, but has never been charged. Whereas Cuba Gooding Jr. was recently charged for an incident that would have registered as quite mild on the Trump scale (though those charges have since been dropped after Gooding put up a strong defence).

                              Comment


                                To me it's a rather shocking verdict, and I felt sick when I read it. I have been assaulted in exactly this manner and it is really unpleasant. I remember it well over 20 years later - not just the assault, but the indifference all around (I was in a crowded pub) to the fact that it was an assault. Trying to parse whether an unwanted, un-asked for kiss is aggressive or sexual seems somewhat tendentious to me as I'd say it's both.

                                Yes, reparation and compensation is a better approach to most things than violent punishment, but simply letting him off is appalling and a 'fuck you' to the victim, as well as now being a high profile case delivering the basic message that forcefully kissing a stranger is not assault. This poor woman has already gone through loads of shit just to present this case and now it's just chucked away. I'd like to buy her something nice right now.

                                Comment


                                  this is a very touching story

                                  https://twitter.com/DavidOlusoga/status/1302185455673368579?s=20

                                  Comment


                                    That's a great story and it's always good to hear about someone standing up for the bullied. Only way he can top that is if I heard that he gave Brian Ferry a kick in the nuts.

                                    Comment


                                      I think Bryan Ferry had moved to London by then. And would’ve been in his twenties, anyway.

                                      Good Gazza story, though.

                                      Comment


                                        For anyone wishing to give Wor Bryan a slap- when visiting his son Otis down in the Stiperstones, they often pop into the village pub. My friends live nearby in a folly modelled on St Basil"s Cathedral, Moscow.

                                        Of course if they had shown while I was visiting, a karaoke version of Mother of Pearl would have been more likely. Never meet your heroes

                                        Ps Otis is the local master of foxhounds
                                        Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 06-09-2020, 10:00.

                                        Comment


                                          Has there ever been a musical career in the last 50 years that was a more blatant attempt to gain entry to the aristocracy?

                                          Comment


                                            Mock Bryan all you like, but he'll have the last laugh when you're all sporting the fashionable gaucho look next spring.



                                            I'm a big fan of pretty much all his stuff, band and solo, up to and including Avalon. Everything he has done since might come in useful if you are trying to smother a chemical fire, I suppose.

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