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[Ray de Galles]

We're going to ban any reference to an "all English" Champions League Final aren't we?

[Gangster Octopus]

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Nazi.

[Ray de Galles]

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Good suggestion, I am fine with references to an "all Nazi" Final as an alternative.

[mirko bolesan]

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I assume David Pleat's "All British final" is also not permitted?

[tracteurgarcon]

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Is it also wrong to refer to the 2003 Final as "All Italian" and 2000 as "All Spanish" then?

[Ray de Galles]

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If the players and ownership (and possibly even the support) of the sides were as cosmopolitan as the finalists will be this year, probably.

I am expecting the Premiership to go UDI from England/Britain soon anyway; setting up their own government, issuing passports and currency, forming their own armed forces and police etc and that should end any confusion.

[G-Man]

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If Liverpool go through, may we refer to the "All-Lancastrian final"?

[Gangster Octopus]

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The East-Lancs Road Final.

[Bored Of Education]

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The "At least it isn't Chelsea" final

[ursus arctos]

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I'm usually in Harry's corner when it comes to linguistic precision and can certainly understand why someone who lives in the UK dreads the outpouring of self-congratulatory flag waving that can be expected to break out as a result of this "achievement", but Man Utd really aren't that much more "cosmopolitan" than the teams that contested that (unspeakably atrocious) "All Serie A" final referenced above.

Last night's Man Utd starting XI: 1-Edwin van der Sar; 4-Owen Hargreaves, 6-Wes Brown, 5-Rio Ferdinand, 3-Patrice Evra; 13-Park Ji-sung, 16-Michael Carrick, 18-Paul Scholes, 17-Nani; 32-Carlos Tevez, 7-Cristiano Ronaldo.

5 England internationals (yes, one of them is really Canadian, but see Camoranesi below).

Milan's starting XI at Old Trafford in 2003:
Dida, Costacurta, Nesta, Maldini, Kaladze, Gattuso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Rui Costa, Shevchenko, Inzaghi.
6 Italian internationals.

Juve's starting XI in the same match:
Buffon, Thuram, Ferrara, Tudor, Montero, Camoranesi, Tacchinardi, Davids, Zambrotta, Trézéguet, Del Piero.
5 Italian internationals (one of whom played a lot more football in Argentina than Hargreaves did in Canada).

Even if you go back to 2000, Valencia only started 6 Spaniards (and finished the match with only 5).

Yes, Chelsea and Liverpool are less "English", and yes, none of the "foreign" teams are owned by Russians or North Americans. But they all (with the possible exception of Valencia) aspire to "global fan bases" and translate their websites into Asian languages.

Not to mention the fact that the Liverpool side that won the competition in 1984 started even fewer Englishmen than Man Utd did last night.

[Ray de Galles]

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but Man Utd really aren't that much more "cosmopolitan" than the teams that contested that (unspeakably atrocious) "All Serie A" final referenced above.

I didn't mean to imply they were, I thought that they were probably about equally "cosmopolitan" in terms of players and support, hence my response

[De Geas Clean Linen]

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Scousers aren't English.

They're a weird alien hybrid of some kind. They even speak like extra-terrestrials. A series of high pitched squeaks and squawks, not to mention those interstellar jumpsuits that they like to wear.

[Hofzinser]

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Juve's starting XI in the same match:
Buffon, Thuram, Ferrara, Tudor, Montero, Camoranesi, Tacchinardi, Davids, Zambrotta, Trézéguet, Del Piero.
5 Italian internationals (one of whom played a lot more football in Argentina than Hargreaves did in Canada)

I count six.

[ursus arctos]

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And you are right. Not sure how that happened.

Somewhat apropos of this thread, I was amused that the top story on my Google News page at the moment is "All-English Champions final proves strength of Premier League".

From The Bangkok Post . . .

[Ibn Pickthall]

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I'm not frequenting the new board as much as I did the old so perhaps I've missed something, but my objection to the use of "All English Final" or variants on it are because of the previously mentioned self-congratulating tone that it's oft spoken in. Much the same as with the Real - Valencia final some years ago in the Spanish press.

However, if the objection is only based upon the increasingly international composition of teams, or, at least, the lessening degree of English players and management at the clubs then I can't really agree. Ultimately this internationalisation of clubs is the logical if extreme extension of clubs looking to recruit players not within the local catchement area of the ground. Maybe as fans we have unattainable ideals regarding players, that our clubs represent the localities in which they're based? Even if that is the case, at least in London, the multi-national make-up probably is a better reflection than of an all-English XI.

Related to this I heard some half-baked football research on ITV the other day stating that the increase of foreign players reached another milestone in Arsenal or Chelsea (can't remember which was mentioned) having no English players in their starting XI within the last couple of seasons. Some mistake surely, Liverpool's FA Cup winning team of 1986 had not a single Englishman starting the game.

[Ray de Galles]

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The objection is for the former reason, Ibn. My own team are hardly composed of local lads.

In truth , it was only a jokey aside , though I do fear the next month of thinly-veiled "Who needs Euro 2008 when we have both teams in the Champions League Final?!" sentiments, mainly from the more flag-waving end of the media rather than anyone who has a clue.

[Ray de Galles]

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Related to this I heard some half-baked football research on ITV the other day stating that the increase of foreign players reached another milestone in Arsenal or Chelsea (can't remember which was mentioned) having no English players in their starting XI within the last couple of seasons. Some mistake surely, Liverpool's FA Cup winning team of 1986 had not a single Englishman starting the game.

I think that fact regarding Chelsea (who I think had the first totally non-British XI with Arsenal having the first totally non-British matchday squad) in hte Premiership era refers to having no British born players, to seperate it from the Liverpool sides of the earlier era.

[caja-dglh]

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I would prefer it to be known as an all-American Final.

[Ray de Galles]

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The Credit Crunch Champions League Final?

[mirko bolesan]

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ursus arctos wrote:

Somewhat apropos of this thread, I was amused that the top story on my Google News page at the moment is "All-English Champions final proves strength of Premier League".

It's a quite weird year for this to happen considering that England's own domestic cup isn't an all-Premier or an all-English affair.

Although the domestic cup will be won by a team managed by an Englishman, while the Champions League will not.

[Ibn Pickthall]

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Ah, sorry Harry. The irony detector is still getting used to the new board's settings.

Does anyone recall Liverpool's single substitute in the 1986 final? Steve McMahon?

[Sam]

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'All-Premiership final'? Are we allowed that?

No different to the other 'banned' terms, of course, in its implication. I was just amused / exasperated last night by the fact the David Pleat's list of firsts ran (in order): 'an all-English final, an all-British final, an all-Premiership final.' Because of course there are loads of sides who fulfill the first condition (being English), but neither of the others, and who could get to the final of the European Cup.

I'll leave the final word of this post un-written, because we all think it every time either Pleat or his unspeakable co-commentator open their mouths...

[Bored Of Education]

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It is, of course, the first all-CIA-backed Final.

My name is Robin Carmody, I'm here all week, try the veal