Bats vs Supes

[Jon]

After watching the new Star Wars film in January, I settled down to read both of the relevant threads on wsc. It was great to read the infectious enthusiasm building month by month.

What a good idea, I thought. Perhaps I should start a Batman v Superman thread and hopefully like-minded souls could share in the mounting excitement? However, I didn't start a thread because, as the months went by, everything I read about the film was so overwhelmingly negative that I decided to withdraw myself from the build up and just go and see it when it came out, avoiding any reviews and spoilers like the plague. But now I find I need to start a thread here anyway as nobody else has.

It's not too bad, you know, and I'm glad I saw it at the cinema. Yes, it has plot holes and annoying dream sequences and I know many people found Jesse Eisenberg extremely annoying as a young Lex Luthor. But Ben Affleck is fine as Batman, as I'd hoped he'd be. Henry Cavill is slightly less fine as Superman but he's still OK. And the film raises some interesting questions about Superman and his role on Earth. It's definitely for a slightly older audience than the Marvel films.

Above all, I like the fact that the tone for what a DC comics film should be like is being struck. They haven't just tried to ape the Marvel Studios campier, more popcorntastic formula. The same is true in the comics - Marvel and DC are very different universes and DC always does better work when celebrating the Dcness of their characters and not trying to copy the Marvel formula.

It's obvious that they are using this film to kickstart the DC Cinematic Universe and so in that respect it can be clunky at times but I'm hoping that now future films in the franchise will be freed from these shackles and just go forth and tell good stories. (But I do realise I'm probably being hopelessly optimistic).

[Reed John]

Bats vs Supes

I don't want to talk about it. Sigh

[Wouter D]

Bats vs Supes

I liked Penny Arcade's take on it:

(as usual, click for larger version)

[MsD]

Bats vs Supes

^Exactly. Superman can reverse the Earth's rotation, what Batsuit is going to make Batman a trillionth as strong? He's just a vigilante, with no special powers at all. Superman could blow on him lightly and send him into orbit.

For that reason, and despite liking Ben Affleck and loving the DC comics, I'm not interested.

Affleck and Cavill were on Graham Norton's show the other night along with Amy Adams, and Ben Affleck seemed uncomfortable then, but who knows.

[RobW]

Bats vs Supes

I'm no comic book/superhero fan, but I thought it was horrendous.

It's an incoherent mess of a story, with terrible editing, ridiculous dream sequences and pointless flashbacks. Affleck does what he can with the script and is the best thing about the film. Cavill just looks like a moody, scolded teenager half the time. Amy Adams just plays the damsel in distress for the entire 150 minutes (and her part in the final climatic battle scene is ridiculous).

Gal Gadot unfortunately only gets 16 lines of dialogue and is there simply to kickstart this Justice League franchise. The way they shoehorn other members of the League is awful an' all.
Eisenberg was probably told, 'by like that guy Zuckerberg you played, but MORE annoying'.

The fight scene itself between B & S was fine, but the reasons for it happening in the first place was tenuous (ok, we get why Bruce Wayne is angry at Superman), but then the reason for stopping the fight and making up was even worse.

I really wanted to like it, I thought Man of Steel was largely fine, again, most of these films are great for 90 minutes and then descend into at least one or maybe two massive punch ups destroying a whole city for 45 minutes.

I really didn't like the whole 'washed out' look of the film. Everything looks slate grey. I miss technicolor. And there was very little humour at all.

[Jah Womble]

Bats vs Supes

Stupid concept from the off - Batman and Superman surely cannot exist in the same world/universe.

It's like someone remaking The Great Gatsby and having, I don't know, Winston Smith pop over for a visit.

(NB I appreciate it's intended humorously here, but, 'Supes'? Jesus wept.)

[Kevin S]

Bats vs Supes

Jah Womble wrote: Stupid concept from the off - Batman and Superman surely cannot exist in the same world/universe.

It's like someone remaking The Great Gatsby and having, I don't know, Winston Smith pop over for a visit.

I've never read them myself, but there is precedent in comics:

http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/2015/12/09/7-best-batman-vs-superman-fights-from-the-comics/

[Jah Womble]

Bats vs Supes

Fair dos. Nonetheless, it does seem to mirror the thinking of emotionally-immature types who order things like 'chicken balti pizza' or whatever: I mean, either go for an Indian or an Italian.

One's enough - you can do the other next time.

[Ray de Galles]

Bats vs Supes

Character crossovers have been a well-established part of comics for decades and the first Batman & Superman link-up was in the fifties. They are frequently ropey but I remember 'The Dark Knight Returns' in '86 being good.

Not that this film looks much cop, everything about it seems clunky. I think I'll only sample it out of curiosity and/or a complete absence of anything else interesting out.

[Crusoe]

Bats vs Supes

Jah Womble wrote: It's like someone remaking The Great Gatsby and having, I don't know, Winston Smith pop over for a visit

I would love to read/watch that.

[EIM]

Bats vs Supes

Definitely having chicken balti pizza for tea.

[Jon]

Bats vs Supes

"I don't want to talk about it. Sigh"

I found going into the cinema with extremely low expectations helped.

Yes, the 'versus' thing was a stupid concept from the off, despite there being precedents in the comics, as Kev points out. The moment I heard what the title of the film was going to be was when I first realised that this was going to be a tough film to like. The whole idea was pandering to the lowest common denominator in movie fans - "Let's just give them a big old fight. That should make a few extra bucks." Plus, whatever idea that was going to pit them against each other was going to be contrived in the extreme. And so it proved to be.

"(NB I appreciate it's intended humorously here, but, 'Supes'? Jesus wept.)"

Humourously, but also affectionately too. Superman is by far my favourite comic book character. And there is a tradition of giving superheroes corny nicknames, popularised by Stan Lee in the 1960s. Eg Spiderman was 'Spidey' or 'Webhead.' Mr Fantastic was 'Stretcho,' Wolverine was 'Wolvie,' Daredevil 'Hornhead' etc etc. You get the picture. I don't know if Supes and Bats were nicknames before or after this but they are often referred to by these names in the comics by other members of the Justice League, for example.

However, it would seem that legendary comic book creator, John Byrne is in your corner:

"When I was a kid, reading superhero comics, I was absolutely in awe of the characters. To call Superman "Supes" or Batman "Bats" would never have occured to me. It would be on a par with calling the President of the United States "Tricky Dick" or "Slick Willy" -- names, you will recall, that were not applied with even a modicum of respect.

Thing is, I was not alone in this. None of my comic-reading friends called the characters by anything other than their names, unless it was a pre-existing nickname like "Cap" for Captain America, "Cap" being common armed forces parlance and long established -- and not pejorative in any way.

When I got into the business, I soon discovered that many writers used nicknames in their plots simply to save the typing fingers. WW or "Wondy" is quicker to type than "Wonder Woman", for instance. Likewise the wince-enducing "Bats" and "Supes". Stan, of course, would occasionally refer to Spider-Man as "Spidey" in the printed books -- and it seemed that it was from this that the affectation really took its hold on fandom. (Stan also once -- and only once -- refered to superheroes as "long underwear characters", but as with so many things, Stan was able to get away with stuff that didn't work when others did it.)

Slowly, the nicknames began seeping into the stories themselves -- often not making much sense. I think it was Don Thompson, in CBG, who once pointed out that writers had taken to having her fellow Justice League members call Wonder Woman "WW" -- something which Don pointed out made perfect sense to a writer trying to save a few keystrokes, but none whatsoever when spoken aloud. Won-der Wo-man has fewer syllables than Dou-ble-You Dou-ble-You, and would be "quicker" to say aloud. (He noted he could not quite "hear" Superman or Batman saying "Dub-yuh Dub-yuh", and I agree!)

As with all such things, it comes down to respect for the characters -- and when I hear "Supes" and "Bats" and "Mags" and "Wondy" and all the rest, I cannot help but think that the speaker is surrendering, if only just a little, to the contemptuous attitude civilians have toward these characters. By calling Batman "Bats" the speaker is signaling to the listener that s/he does not really take these characters and stories seriously, so should not be viewed as one of those geeky fanboys or girls."

[Jah Womble]

Bats vs Supes

Ray de Galles wrote: Character crossovers have been a well-established part of comics for decades and the first Batman & Superman link-up was in the fifties. They are frequently ropey but I remember 'The Dark Knight Returns' in '86 being good.

Just because something has been done doesn't mean it should've been done.

Don't let EIM and his retrograde dietary habits deceive you.

[Ginger Yellow]

Bats vs Supes

As I understand it this film is basically Snyder's take on The Dark Knight Returns (though changed enough so as not to be an official adaptation). Snyder being Snyder, though, he misses the point.

[ian.64]

Bats vs Supes

I'm not particularly interested in Batman vs Superman, not because I've got anything against superhero movies (there's some terrific examples I could easily watch again), but Snyder's Man Of Steel, though opulently mounted, was an annoyingly humourless headache of a film where the concept of fun was kidnapped, chucked in a sack, kicked to hell and thrown in a canal. Any grand, operatic themes intended by the filmmakers were clunky, boring and handled with grinding portentousness. From all accounts, it's all the same in BvS, with the added ingredient of incomprehension.

Nah.

[Ray de Galles]

Bats vs Supes

Jah Womble wrote:

Character crossovers have been a well-established part of comics for decades and the first Batman & Superman link-up was in the fifties. They are frequently ropey but I remember 'The Dark Knight Returns' in '86 being good.

Just because something has been done doesn't mean it should've been done.

Don't let EIM and his retrograde dietary habits deceive you.

You did seem to be reacting as if the crossover concept of this film was some peculiar outrageous development when in fact it's an established genre. The biggest superhero movie series right now, The Avengers, is a similarly a crossover.

.

[Patrick Thistle]

Bats vs Supes

Jon, why is superman your favourite comic book character? He's so boring. He just basically can do anything so why would any superhuman activity be extraordinary? Oh you melted a missile with your eyes while lifting a train over your head? Well you are Superman...

It's not even as if he's brave. If I was bulletproof I'd be brave as well.

[Patrick Thistle]

Bats vs Supes

Also if Batman-Superman crossovers are a horrible new idea to anyone then clearly you haven't been paying attention. Even I've heard about the Justice League.

[Jon]

Bats vs Supes

Even before the Justice League, you had World's Finest Comics, where they would team up on a monthly basis.

Jon, why is superman your favourite comic book character?

Hmm, many reasons, some I find hard to explain but I'll try.

The Christopher Reeve Superman films were my first introduction to the character and, although I was never a slavish fan of the films at the time, they were a real part of my childhood and the first two really do still hold up today. (I bought the box set last year). For me, Christopher Reeve is the definitive Superman, which is part of the reason why I liked the generally panned Superman Returns. Although Brandon Routh played Superman, he was basically playing him (and Clark Kent) as a homage to Reeve.

I love the origin story too, it's got a lot more depth going for it than most origin stories. An alien, the last survivor on his planet, sent to Earth. Adopted by a childless couple. And I'm a sucker for the rural mid-west on celluloid. I have a warm glow inside whenever I see any scenes set on the Kents' farm.

The story of Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster, the creators of Superman, is really interesting. Two Jewish teenage sci-fi fans from Cleveland. Siegel never came up with anything else as successful as Superman, although he never stopped trying. Beginner's luck, I guess. He was constantly screwed over by DC comics during his lifetime. Eventually he and Schuster came to a financial settlement, in time for the first Christopher Reeve film, I think, but it was small beer compared to the money that Superman has made for them and for Time Warner over the years.

I'm also really interested in his mythos and status as a cultural icon. He was the first superhero to really make it big and some 80 years later he's still big news. Writers come and go, as do artists and the actors who play him but he'll be around long after we're all dead. He's been treated by writers very differently throughout the years. When he first started off he was something of a working class hero and champion of the oppressed. During the war years his growing success meant he was used for propaganda purposes by the US. Only by the 50s do many of the more familiar elements of the Superman mythos come into play.

He's so boring.

For me, Superman is only boring if the writer who writes him isn't skilled enough. In the best work I've read he’s used as a symbol or a metaphor, and can be used to address big questions about life, the universe and everything. For this reason, I'd highly recommend Alan Moore and Grant Morrison's work on Superman.

Is he cool? I think so. Yes, Batman is more superficially cool, with his car, his gadgets and his brooding. But I'll leave that to the teenagers. Grant Morrison once met a man cosplaying Superman at the San Diego comics convention and he said he looked the coolest guy there:

"He was perched with one knee drawn up, chin resting on his arms. He looked totally relaxed... and I suddenly realized this was how Superman would sit. He wouldn't puff out his chest or posture heroically, he would be totally chilled. If nothing can hurt you, you can afford to be cool. A man like Superman would never have to tense against the cold; never have to flinch in the face of a blow. He would be completely laid back, un-tense.”

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Bats vs Supes

I've always thought Superman is totally that, a metaphor, for the very 1950s ideal that if you live the clean-cut American way, someone (a mystical immortal, omniscient, all-powerful being, gosh, who could that be?) will always come along and save you when your bus goes off a cliff, or smite you if you turn to crime.

As the premise is that he should be able to save everyone , the only conundrum with Superman is why doesn't he. A bit like, you know, the other bloke.

[Come along, Min]

Bats vs Supes

Nice post there Jon.

[Jah Womble]

Bats vs Supes

Patrick Thistle wrote: Also if Batman-Superman crossovers are a horrible new idea to anyone then clearly you haven't been paying attention. Even I've heard about the Justice League.

If you're referring to me, I've not said anything about the idea being new. How long this has been a tradition isn't relevant to my objection - which is more about 'purism'. To repeat:

These characters were created independently, therefore should exist independently. Like all fiction. Having them cropping up in one another's dining rooms just seems silly to me, like a kids' playground game in which anybody can suddenly be any character from any world.

But anyway, it makes no odds really. Enjoy.

[Levin]

Bats vs Supes

All Star Superman converted me to Superman. Before that I was in the he's dull camp.

[Jon]

Bats vs Supes

"Nice post there Jon."

Thanks Luke. As an addendum to that post I'd have to say that it's been quite recently I've found myself in the Superman camp. If you'd asked me up to a few years ago who my favourite superhero was I'd have probably said Spiderman or maybe Daredevil. But, as with Levin, All Star Superman went some of the way to converting me.

This song, by Sufjan Stevens, also helped - The Man of Metropolis steals our hearts. I always liked to think it was about Superman, but after reading the lyrics, who knows? Maybe it's about Jesus, which would link in with Rogin's idea on the previous page.

[Patrick Thistle]

Bats vs Supes

Jah Womble wrote:

Also if Batman-Superman crossovers are a horrible new idea to anyone then clearly you haven't been paying attention. Even I've heard about the Justice League.

If you're referring to me, I've not said anything about the idea being new. How long this has been a tradition isn't relevant to my objection - which is more about 'purism'. To repeat:

These characters were created independently, therefore should exist independently. Like all fiction. Having them cropping up in one another's dining rooms just seems silly to me, like a kids' playground game in which anybody can suddenly be any character from any world.

But anyway, it makes no odds really. Enjoy.

Not aimed at you particularly. There had been a couple of harrumphing posts about crossovers.

Superman didn't even start in his own comic let alone his own fictional universe, so I'm not sure about the whole separate creation angle.

Thanks Jon, for the explanation. Bit surprised you hadn't heard the Superman-Jesus connection. It's fairly blatant. A powerful being comes down from the heavens as a baby, is raised in the sticks and then sets out to save the world. He's also called Kal-El, of course, with El being one of the Hebrew Biblical words for God.

If you want to know more about the Christopher Reeve films you should check out the article on Den of Geek where they revisit all the Milton Keynes locations where Superman IV was filmed on the cheap. (And the level of cheap was incredible. New York represented by a lone fire hydrant for example.)