Cold War Britain

[MsD]

I watched this, enthralled by the wonderful archive footage, but as with The Seventies, was appalled by how bad Dominic Sandbrook is, both as a historian and a presenter.

He kept banging on about the "glamour" of the Cold War, with James Bond as an example. He pulls what he might think is a "glamorous" face when he says "glamour", raising a cheeky eyebrow and pouting a little.

As with the Seventies, he made far too many iffy connections, comparisons and general observations for me to list.

The Cold War is a fascinating subject, one of my favourite parts of my studies (European Studies, History). It's also enormously important in teaching us how governments use propaganda and the rule of fear to gaslight and cow whole nations, how terrifyingly possible nuclear annihilation was and how we all are from time to time at the mercy of the egos of statesmen and civil servants. There is much to think about, most of it sobering rather than "glamorous".

Seeing it dumbed down like this is infuriating.

[Gangster Octopus]

Cold War Britain

I must admit, once I saw who was fronting this series, I decided to give it a miss.

[dalliance]

Cold War Britain

Trying to distill the vast complexities of five decades of the Cold War into three hour-long programmes is always going to involve considerable compromise surely?

I think they give a good overview of the subject with some really interesting nuggets that I wasn't at all aware of - like the idiotic Red Dean of Canterbury last week. I have enjoyed both programmes so far.

[MsD]

Cold War Britain

I'm enjoying the footage.

I was prepared for compromise, of course, it's for a general audience, but he distorts it by making it all seem like a jolly jape, full of "glamour" and Russian chicks in kinky boots saying "tell me ver iz ze microfilm".

It was a very dangerous period, when governments acted with total arrogance "in our nation's interest". I don't know if you remember the 80s that well, but we were terrified a lot of the time.

Reminds me of Billy Connolly's spoof on patronising weather presenters: "this is A CLOUD!" and worse than his "jolly" voice is his "a bit cross" voice, used a lot about unions in The Seventies and about Russians and peace protesters here.

[dalliance]

Cold War Britain

I do remember the 80s and I thought his tone was pretty appropriate when it came to the wrongheadedness of the CND and idiots in Grovesnor Square hoisting placards of Ho Chi-Minh.

[Felicity, I guess so]

Cold War Britain

his "a bit cross" voice, used a lot about unions in The Seventies

I've only seen his 70s prog, and this was so overdone (and not a single mention of British leyland hiring hatchet bosses deliberately to provoke the union action) that, like GO, I avoid the cunt now.

[blameless]

Cold War Britain

Aye, Sandbrook's "The 70s were the most influential and important decade in history, ever, ever, ever" schtick wears thin after about, ohhh... twenty seconds or so (and I say that as someone who was born in 1974).

The Cold War is far too interesting and important a subject for this biased, incompetent dickhead to be presenting the programmes.

[RobW]

Cold War Britain

Gangster Octopus wrote: I must admit, once I saw who was fronting this series, I decided to give it a miss.

Yep, me too.

His documentary on the history of the German motor industry earlier this year was awful I thought.

When I saw BBC 2 were doing a Cold War Season I was very excited as thought they might repeat the wonderful documentary series from 15-16 years ago. Sadly not.

I was discussing Sandbrook with my manager the other week, and he mentioned this blog, which is mildly amusing.

http://weneedtotalkaboutdominic.wordpress.com/

[MsD]

Cold War Britain

It's very good, nails it. (the blog)

Some people will watch the series and think they've learnt all about the Cold War, because it's on the BBC. That's worrying and makes me rather sad :-(

[ShortyMedlocke]

Cold War Britain

On the topic of the cold war, and from a purely aesthetic point of view. it was good to see this beauty just storming down the runway:

V Bomber in high powered run

[Furtho]

Cold War Britain

Very interesting link, that, RobW, thank you.

[MsD]

Cold War Britain

ShortyMedlocke wrote: On the topic of the cold war, and from a purely aesthetic point of view. it was good to see this beauty just storming down the runway:

V Bomber in high powered run

That is a gorgeous plane. There certainly are programmes to be made about the aesthetics and art of the Cold War. I started collecting propaganda materials at one point, and love looking at things from the period. In Moscow, I studied and stayed at the old Komsomol camp, which had a concealed entrance, old planes etc., it was great. Like something out of Tintin.

But it's a different thing, and needs to be signposted as such. It's not quite as tainted as "the Art and Design of the Nazis" or anything but needs to be put in context by someone who knows what they're talking about.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cold War Britain

dalliance wrote: I do remember the 80s and I thought his tone was pretty appropriate when it came to the wrongheadedness of the CND and idiots in Grovesnor Square hoisting placards of Ho Chi-Minh.

So Britain playing "me too" with nuclear weapons, when America had more than enough already, stopped the Soviets charging over the Berlin Wall?

I can't even face this Sandbrook programme.

[Come along, Min]

Cold War Britain

The CND weren't just about stopping the UK from developing their own weapons. They opposed US nukes in Europe as a whole.

[MsD]

Cold War Britain

... and weren't thrilled about Soviet/WP weapons, either.

CND at least asked the questions that the governments and other, murky PTB didn't want asked, whether or not you were in favour of total disarmament.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cold War Britain

Did they actually suggested getting rid of every nuclear weapon before the Soviets got rid of any? I understood it more as taking the first steps unilaterally.

[Come along, Min]

Cold War Britain

Sure, there was a nobility to their cause, but the effect they had on the USSR's nuclear program would have been non-existent.

It wouldn't be unfair to say those in military power behind the iron curtain must have welcomed CND's influence in the west, for reasons that are obvious.

[MsD]

Cold War Britain

Yes, CND advocated unilateralism and yes, that was welcomed in the USSR, although not necessarily for sinister "haha now ve vill haff zem at our mercy, comrades" reasons. Or not just that, anyway. The arms race put everyone in danger and crippled the Soviet economy.

AFAIK it was a bit all or nothing in the 70s and 80s, I didn't know of any groups pressing for a middle way - e.g. greater government openness, dialogue and pluralist co-existence with the Communist countries, and gradual mutual disarmament. If I had I might have signed up with them, but as it was, I joined CND (despite thinking "er, hang on a minute .. ") and the British Soviet Friendship Society or whatever they were called.

Actually a campaign for mutual disarmament is ringing a bell, may have to go back (look at books) and check.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Cold War Britain

Sure, there was a nobility to their cause, but the effect they had on the USSR's nuclear program would have been non-existent.

That wasn't the point. If something was wrong you resisted, it was a categorical imperative. Personal as much as it was political. Several of CND's founders — Bertrand Russell, Fenner Brockway and others — had been conscientious objectors during WW1. They were right to act then (so most on the left believed) and, following their example, it would be right to do so again.

[MsD]

Cold War Britain

I'm a bit rusty here (see my edit above) but I think CND included a lot of principled unilateralists, as you say, but also a fair number of pragmatic multilateralists.

Not that you can't be both, or all.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cold War Britain

It wouldn't be unfair to say those in military power behind the iron curtain must have welcomed CND's influence in the west, for reasons that are obvious.

That it would have given them an excuse to stop spunking money on more nukes.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Cold War Britain

MsD wrote: I'm a bit rusty here (see my edit above) but I think CND included a lot of principled unilateralists, as you say, but also a fair number of pragmatic multilateralists.

Not that you can't be both, or all.

Rusty? I'm positively corroded.

Later on I'm sure you're right, but at it's inception unilateralism definitely held sway. It was largely the influence of CND heavy-weights that unilateral disarmament became part of Labour's platform in 1959, for instance. The election loss, and Gaitskell's death, split the focus of CND I think — if memory serves, it was sometime around there that Russell left to form the Committee of 100 — and it ceased to be the power it had been.

[Come along, Min]

Cold War Britain

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

It wouldn't be unfair to say those in military power behind the iron curtain must have welcomed CND's influence in the west, for reasons that are obvious.

That it would have given them an excuse to stop spunking money on more nukes.

And spend it on providing their comrades with bread and water?.

E. Germans Had Plans For Invasion -- Documents Indicate Soviet Bloc Seriously Considered Assault

In hindsight, the most sensible reaction to the creation of something that couldn't be uninvented (like Nuclear weaponry) was Mutually Assured Destruction after all.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Cold War Britain

West Germany was full of troops. That would have been a suicidal invasion.

CND would probably argue that the best way to deal with that Stasi mindset would be to take steps to end the Cold War, by unilaterally starting to disarm, along with diplomatic efforts as well.

In hindsight, we came pretty close to annihilation.

[Levin]

Cold War Britain

Luke R wrote:

It wouldn't be unfair to say those in military power behind the iron curtain must have welcomed CND's influence in the west, for reasons that are obvious.

That it would have given them an excuse to stop spunking money on more nukes.

And spend it on providing their comrades with bread and water?.

E. Germans Had Plans For Invasion -- Documents Indicate Soviet Bloc Seriously Considered Assault

In hindsight, the most sensible reaction to the creation of something that couldn't be uninvented (like Nuclear weaponry) was Mutually Assured Destruction after all.

But Nations plan for eventualities just look at War Plan Red.

One of the things that strikes you as you read more about the Cold War is that both sides regarded the other as aggressors and acted as they saw best to defend their interests.