RIP Norm Macdonald

[San Bernardhinault]

Weird Science is (was?) one of my all time favourite films. Haven't seen it for years, but I know every word of it. It's very white, it's very 80s in lots of ways, but it does have a funny and clever female lead and a pretty strong "don't be a dick to people" message about it. The love interest at the end is so tacked on as to be a bit incongruous, but it's a film for teenage boys. That and FBDO are the least problematic of that run of John Hughes films.

For a long time I got Revenge of the Nerds and Weird Science confused in my head. I watched Revenge of the Nerds recently - if you want a problematic film, holy shit that's you're problematic film.

[Patrick Thistle]

We've been watching episodes of the Norm Show at lunchtimes and while there are sometimes one or two lines that are funny, there are gags that reach for being gay as the punchline in a way that firmly date the show.

[hobbes]

Mentioned in the same breath is often Weird Science, which I didn't see in the '80s and have also never seen once in the intervening 35+ years.

Weird Science is (was?) one of my all time favourite films. Haven't seen it for years, but I know every word of it. It's very white, it's very 80s in lots of ways, but it does have a funny and clever female lead and a pretty strong "don't be a dick to people" message about it. The love interest at the end is so tacked on as to be a bit incongruous, but it's a film for teenage boys. That and FBDO are the least problematic of that run of John Hughes films.

Actually, there's a good New Yorker article by Molly Ringwald about John Hughes and his blind spots.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Well I'm not advocating for every comic venture to be about smashing the system god knows. That seems to be a recipe for more fucking Ben Elton. More steer clear of the cheap comedy of bullying and cruelty.

there's a reason porridge is still shown, when so many of its contemporaries have been consigned to the memory dungeon.

[Patrick Thistle]

There is a thing that always makes me nervous about "of its time" or "Doing it for laughs" defences. And it's that it usually refers to a piece of comedy that violates a fairly important rule of comedy. Don't punch down. If you don't want your comedy to have the shelf life of a chocolate eclair, do not punch down. Firstly it makes you look like a cunt at the time to anyone with a brain or a heart, but secondly the "humour" relies on the social attitudes of the day, that are most likely to shift radically over time, and that is, who is the current weak outgroup who is least able to hit back. That will change. I'm not sure if there would be a box set of Laurel and hardy films above my telly if every third joke was about the jews, or black people, or whatever was wildly popular in the 30's.

I'm not even sure about "punching up" tbh. So much of that is lazy hackery.

Some of what Norm said about Trump applies here. Trump was a really easy target. Too easy really. And the jokes ended up being less funny.

[Patrick Thistle]

and so late in his career either when he should have known better.

This.

I've not seen the "oblique apology" referenced in the Rolling Stone thread.

[WOM]

Yeah, but it mirrors my own feelings pretty well. I'm more upset by this than I ever am about celebrity deaths, but I also wish he hadn't made so many trans jokes or gay jokes, and so late in his career either when he should have known better. But he was imperfect, like we all are. He was just imperfect on tape, so it will last much longer and do more damage.

[Patrick Thistle]

This article from Rolling Stone is very weird. It's a gushing eulogy that also mentions Norm being on the wrong side of history.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-f...n-1226839/amp/

(Also what is a "separatist community"?)

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I've read the chorus many times, but I've never heard the actual song before. I'm kind of surprised that Luke Kelly didn't record a version of this. This sort of english folk song was right up his street.

[Amor de Cosmos]

No it's much, much older than Flanders and Swann. So old it's in the public domain.
Here's Billy Bennett's version from the 1930s

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Couldn't agree more. I happened upon the complete lyrics to the old music-hall standard She Was Poor, But She Was Honest recently. It manages to be funny, righteously angry, and poignant simultaneously. That's a rare combination these days


She was poor but she was honest
though she came from humble stock
And her honest heart was beating
Underneath her tattered frock

But the rich man saw her beauty
She knew not his base design
And he took her to a hotel
And bought her a small port wine

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

In the rich man's arms she fluttered
Like a bird with a broken wing
But he loved her and he left her
Now she hasn't got no ring

Time has flown - outcast and homeless
In the street she stands and says
While the snowflakes fall around her
'Won't you buy my bootlaces'

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

Standing on the bridge at midnight
She says 'Farewell blighted love!'
There's a scream a splash good 'eavens!
What is she a doing of?

Soon they dragged her from the river
Water from her clothes they wrang
They all thought that she was drownded
But the corpse got up and sang:

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

She was poor but she was honest
Victim of a rich man's game
First he loved her then he left her
And she lost her maiden name

Then she ran away to London
For to hide her grief and shame
There she met an Army captain
And she lost her name again

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

See him riding in a carriage
Past the gutter where she stands
He has made a stylish marriage
While she wrings her ringless hands

See him there at the theatre
In the front row with the best
While the girl that he has ruined
Entertains a sordid guest

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

See her on the bridge at midnight
Crying "Farewell blighted love"
Then a scream a splash and Goodness!
What is she a-doing of?

When they dragged her from the river
Water from her clothes they wrung
Though they thought that she was drown
Still her corpse got up and sung:

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

Is this song the reply to "Have some madeira m'dear"?

Too many lost their lives in the east coast/west coast music hall gang feuds

[Hot Pepsi]

FBDO is excellent. My kids even love it. I'm also a big fan of Uncle Buck, Sixteen Candles, Pretty in Pink, and Planes, Trains and Automobiles. All written and directed by Hughes. Also, Home Alone, which is fantastic.

Mentioned in the same breath is often Weird Science, which I didn't see in the '80s and have also never seen once in the intervening 35+ years.

Yeah.
I think Sixteen Candles is the one that usually gets flagged now as having aged poorly for a few reasons. The others are mostly ok. TP&A is an all time great film.
Pretty in Pink would work better now if she ***spoiler*** didn't end up with either boy. I think they originally wanted her to go with Ducky or maybe stay alone, but test audiences insisted she end up with Blane. Test audiences in the 80s were dumb.

Weird Science is problematic, but does have a good performance from Bill Paxton as an all time 80's asshole. I don't think I've seen that in at least 30 years.

[Amor de Cosmos]

There is a thing that always makes me nervous about "of its time" or "Doing it for laughs" defences. And it's that it usually refers to a piece of comedy that violates a fairly important rule of comedy. Don't punch down. If you don't want your comedy to have the shelf life of a chocolate eclair, do not punch down. Firstly it makes you look like a cunt at the time to anyone with a brain or a heart, but secondly the "humour" relies on the social attitudes of the day, that are most likely to shift radically over time, and that is, who is the current weak outgroup who is least able to hit back. That will change. I'm not sure if there would be a box set of Laurel and hardy films above my telly if every third joke was about the jews, or black people, or whatever was wildly popular in the 30's.

Couldn't agree more. I happened upon the complete lyrics to the old music-hall standard She Was Poor, But She Was Honest recently. It manages to be funny, righteously angry, and poignant simultaneously. That's a rare combination these days


She was poor but she was honest
though she came from humble stock
And her honest heart was beating
Underneath her tattered frock

But the rich man saw her beauty
She knew not his base design
And he took her to a hotel
And bought her a small port wine

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

In the rich man's arms she fluttered
Like a bird with a broken wing
But he loved her and he left her
Now she hasn't got no ring

Time has flown - outcast and homeless
In the street she stands and says
While the snowflakes fall around her
'Won't you buy my bootlaces'

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

Standing on the bridge at midnight
She says 'Farewell blighted love!'
There's a scream a splash good 'eavens!
What is she a doing of?

Soon they dragged her from the river
Water from her clothes they wrang
They all thought that she was drownded
But the corpse got up and sang:

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

She was poor but she was honest
Victim of a rich man's game
First he loved her then he left her
And she lost her maiden name

Then she ran away to London
For to hide her grief and shame
There she met an Army captain
And she lost her name again

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

See him riding in a carriage
Past the gutter where she stands
He has made a stylish marriage
While she wrings her ringless hands

See him there at the theatre
In the front row with the best
While the girl that he has ruined
Entertains a sordid guest

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

See her on the bridge at midnight
Crying "Farewell blighted love"
Then a scream a splash and Goodness!
What is she a-doing of?

When they dragged her from the river
Water from her clothes they wrung
Though they thought that she was drown
Still her corpse got up and sung:

It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?

[WOM]

FBDO is excellent. My kids even love it. I'm also a big fan of Uncle Buck, Sixteen Candles, Pretty in Pink, and Planes, Trains and Automobiles. All written and directed by Hughes. Also, Home Alone, which is fantastic.

Mentioned in the same breath is often Weird Science, which I didn't see in the '80s and have also never seen once in the intervening 35+ years.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I think that may account for a lot of it!

[Hot Pepsi]

I didn't think it was funny in 1992 when I was 14. But I must have understood very little of it.

Perhaps you weren't a depressed teenager at a US suburban high school in the 80s.

It's very white. And the timeline doesn't make sense. But otherwise, I don't think there's much that they couldn't put in a film now. Young people getting one over on their parents and asshole principal is timeless.

If The Breakfast Club were made now, Michael Hall's character would be Asian, Emilio Estevez's character would be Black, Judd Nelson's character would be Gay, and Ally Sheedy's character would be Latina or maybe Muslim.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ferris Bueller's Day Off still stands up.

I didn't think it was funny in 1992 when I was 14. But I must have understood very little of it.

[WOM]

I'm a big fan of John Hughes films, but I'm often caught off guard by the lines that would have made me roar as a teen but which I'm appalled by now.

[Hot Pepsi]

Ferris Bueller's Day Off still stands up.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

There is a thing that always makes me nervous about "of its time" or "Doing it for laughs" defences. And it's that it usually refers to a piece of comedy that violates a fairly important rule of comedy. Don't punch down. If you don't want your comedy to have the shelf life of a chocolate eclair, do not punch down. Firstly it makes you look like a cunt at the time to anyone with a brain or a heart, but secondly the "humour" relies on the social attitudes of the day, that are most likely to shift radically over time, and that is, who is the current weak outgroup who is least able to hit back. That will change. I'm not sure if there would be a box set of Laurel and hardy films above my telly if every third joke was about the jews, or black people, or whatever was wildly popular in the 30's.

That joke about the trans murder is as glaring an example as you could possibly see. It's just lazy as fuck. but if I have any advice for DM, it's stop bloody watching films from the 80's and 90's, particularly if you have any kind of fond memories of them. I've had to stop. I just can't take it any more. I'm afraid I'd sooner watch a romantic comedy from the 1950's, between a 60 year old man and his 25 year old wife, if I were in the hunt for laughs, than anything from those two decades. The degree to which so many of those movies are transparently the cinematic or televisual version of the bag of sweets to tempt you into the back of the van is alarming.

[WOM]

Macdonald seems to want to go straight towards racist and transphobic themes at every opportunity.

Please tell me you can see all the crude / rough editing to make it look exactly that way.

[Hot Pepsi]

I think it's supposed to build self-confidence and assertiveness. But, having never done stand-up, I can't say for sure. Certainly acting, and other performative situations can aid self-assurance.

Yes. Acting definitely would be good prep for lots of things. But in stand up, you really have to rehearse in public and there are only so many opportunities. That sounds grueling.

I think late night shows with actors flogging movies are popular because they’re good at pretending to be comfortable in conversation.

[Satchmo Distel]

Macdonald and Stephen Merchant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUzB...l=I%27mnotNorm

Macdonald seems to want to go straight towards racist and transphobic themes at every opportunity.

[Snake Plissken]

I don’t see how being disapproved of by a group of drunk strangers and fellow amateur comics would be therapeutic. That is, how I understand it, what open mics are like.

You're going to the wrong open mics. Well, American ones.

WOM is right. Having done stand-up for a couple of years, it was very easy to transfer that into MCing live events, doing presentations and delivering training. I'm literally just in the middle of doing a few talks to camera and the actual delivery is simple, it's remember to focus on the single point that's the tricky bit.

But it's not just comedy that gives you those skills. A mate of mine was a street preacher before getting into standup - "people ignoring you or hating what you are saying was always extraordinarily good preparation for my act".

[Snake Plissken]

Of course, a lot of the best SNL bits are the taped ones.

Not too difficult because the cast are literally having to read lines off cue cards because they can't rehearse the material.