RIP Norm Macdonald

[WOM]

A couple of the young copywriters I've hired over the past few years have done amateur standup. By far and away, they're the best in presentations. So calm and easygoing and in command of the room.

[Amor de Cosmos]

I think it's supposed to build self-confidence and assertiveness. But, having never done stand-up, I can't say for sure. Certainly acting, and other performative situations can aid self-assurance.

[Hot Pepsi]

I don’t see how being disapproved of by a group of drunk strangers and fellow amateur comics would be therapeutic. That is, how I understand it, what open mics are like.

[Amor de Cosmos]

A lot of stand ups are addicted to it and don’t give it up no matter how much money they have or other options.

It is legitimately therapeutic I think. Certainly plenty of counseling courses include stand-up in their curriculum.

[Hot Pepsi]

Yeah, Martin had started doing movies when he quit stand up, so at least he had money rolling in, but in the book he makes it clear that he just didn’t want to do it any more, regardless of his other projects.

A lot of stand ups are addicted to it and don’t give it up no matter how much money they have or other options. Seinfeld still tours. Judd Apatow has been doing stand up lately.

I’m sure that Martin been offered ungodly sums of money to resurrect the old standup show for MSG or the Staples Center, etc. Shit, in the 80s he could maybe have played the Rose Bowl. But it was done.

Of course, the success of his other projects means he doesn’t need that money. It’s like the Beatles in that way. Sure, they could have played some shows in the 70s for huge dollars, but why bother?

[Bruno]

Reed said that!

[Amor de Cosmos]

Steve Martin quit because of that, basically. He just had nowhere else to go with his stand-up.

He also had a lot of other avenues to explore: actor, writer, playwright, musician, director...

[Bruno]

Macdonald's deliberately bad roast of Bob Saget is a good example of his brand of meta humor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QfsXUPghXk

[Hot Pepsi]

"MOM! THE MEATLOAF" is the funniest part of that film.
"Goddamn you! I almost nunchucked you. You don't even realize!"

[Bruno]

I'm sad for you that you don't think Cowbell and Get Off the Shed are funny.*

I suppose you don't love "I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!!" either? That's unfortunate. I just find people losing their shit over trivial things to be inherently funny. Ergo, there's a lot of dark comedy to be had in airports.

Well okay, they're not unfunny, but I wouldn't rank them all-time classics. I've always liked MOM THE MEATLOAF if that helps.

Most of the things Ferrell does are funny. Not all - that movie he made with Amy Poehler about putting a casino in a suburban living room was shockingly bad - but his hit rate is high and he was great on SNL. Because he's 100% committed to the bits and isn't afraid to fail. His SNL colleagues have commended him on his ability to let bombs roll off him and move on to the next thing without dwelling on it.

But I agree that comedians are in trouble when they become so popular that their reputation precedes them and they laugh at everything. A number of stand-ups have pointed out that they have to go to very specific clubs to try out new materials because, at a lot of places, they'll get laughs just because they're famous. Steve Martin quit because of that, basically. He just had nowhere else to go with his stand-up.

That's why I never started standup, I was too worried about that happening.

[Hot Pepsi]

True, and I didn't mean to suggest any criticism for not mentioning females, or trans or nonbinary comics. My train of thought was that most of what we're appalled at is toxic male shit, which made me think how female comics are relatively untainted. There are of course lots of successful female standups now, but when thinking about which females I find funniest I ended up listing improv comics, some of whom imo are the funniest ever across genres and genders. I should've mentioned Kate McKinnon too.



Yeah, there have to be exceptions, it's just the nature of comedy to attract problematic people, for lack of a better word.



Cowbell and Get off the Shed were never that funny to me. I never got the "everything Will Ferrell does is funny" thing. He seemed best at breaking up his colleagues, which must be hard, but I feel like he acquired an aura where audiences were laughing because it was him rather than whatever he was doing, like a class clown effect. The Californians is good, weirdly disjunct in a similar way to Pageant Talk. They've gotten a lot of mileage out of the game show format too.

I'm sad for you that you don't think Cowbell and Get Off the Shed are funny.*

I suppose you don't love "I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!!" either? That's unfortunate. I just find people losing their shit over trivial things to be inherently funny. Ergo, there's a lot of dark comedy to be had in airports.

Most of the things Ferrell does are funny. Not all - that movie he made with Amy Poehler about putting a casino in a suburban living room was shockingly bad - but his hit rate is high and he was great on SNL. Because he's 100% committed to the bits and isn't afraid to fail. His SNL colleagues have commended him on his ability to let bombs roll off him and move on to the next thing without dwelling on it.

But I agree that comedians are in trouble when they become so popular that their reputation precedes them and they laugh at everything. A number of stand-ups have pointed out that they have to go to very specific clubs to try out new materials because, at a lot of places, they'll get laughs just because they're famous. Steve Martin quit because of that, basically. He just had nowhere else to go with his stand-up.


*Of course, Cowbell is more about Christopher Walken, one of the top five all time repeat SNL hosts. Other people could have done Will Ferrell's part in that, but only Walken could have played THE Bruce Dickinson, the cock of the walk.

[Bruno]

All your examples aren't stand-ups. If I listed all the sketch performers and actors I like, there'd be a lot more women. Improv seems to be more popular among women getting into comedy than stand-up

True, and I didn't mean to suggest any criticism for not mentioning females, or trans or nonbinary comics. My train of thought was that most of what we're appalled at is toxic male shit, which made me think how female comics are relatively untainted. There are of course lots of successful female standups now, but when thinking about which females I find funniest I ended up listing improv comics, some of whom imo are the funniest ever across genres and genders. I should've mentioned Kate McKinnon too.

I don't think you have to be an asshole to be funny.
Steven Wright isn't an asshole. Gary Gulman isn't an asshole, neither Pete Holmes or Ron Funches. Funches persona is a guy who really likes to be high, because he is a guy who likes to be high. I prefer that energy.

Yeah, there have to be exceptions, it's just the nature of comedy to attract problematic people, for lack of a better word.

I think SNL is better than that, but as you suggest, the best sketches are the ones that probably didn't appear to be that funny on paper. Like Cowbell, Get off the Shed or The Californians. It's all in the commitment and execution. I don't think the writing is bad so much as they've got to serve a pretty boring audience. If they could do all the weird shit that only the writers think is funny, I'd probably like it more, but it wouldn't be as popular or get laughs in the studio.

I've noticed that YouTube is awash in videos that are just a series of people's favorites five-fifteen second clips from SNL sketches. That suggests that most sketches would probably be funnier if they were shorter and just focused on the best lines. But it would be much harder to do a live show changing every minute or two.

Of course, a lot of the best SNL bits are the taped ones.

Cowbell and Get off the Shed were never that funny to me. I never got the "everything Will Ferrell does is funny" thing. He seemed best at breaking up his colleagues, which must be hard, but I feel like he acquired an aura where audiences were laughing because it was him rather than whatever he was doing, like a class clown effect. The Californians is good, weirdly disjunct in a similar way to Pageant Talk. They've gotten a lot of mileage out of the game show format too.

[WOM]

Sandler is quite talented, just a pretty considerable asshole.

[WOM]

Pete Davidson seems deeply troubled / bent on self-destruction, which is always depressing.

[Hot Pepsi]

Yeah, and most who have been successful SNL cast members haven't been major standup acts. The big exceptions are Eddie Murphy and Chris Rock. Less high-profile but still successful at standup are Colin Quinn (quite good sometimes), Dana Carvey (meh), David Spade (meh), Adam Sandler (no), Dennis Miller (no), Kevin Nealon (also quite good as I remember, it's been forever), Sarah Silverman (hit and miss)... Pete Davidson I can't understand the appeal, and his recent standup special struck me as more of the same laziness. Michael Che has a special I think. Anyway, the comedy picture gets a lot more diverse when you include actors, and it seems (?) to allow for a nicer bunch of people.

Michael Che's special is pretty good.

Sandler had good stuff on SNL.

Pete Davidson is ok, but not great. He has good chemistry with Timothee Chalamet in a few sketches. But his range is pretty limited.

[Ray de Galles]

Ronnie Corbett's monologues were excellent and probably stand up better now than any other part of the 'Two Ronnies' save for some of the classic sketches. I wish the BBC would put them out in some stand-alone form.

[Hot Pepsi]

It's a job description that practically requires you to be an asshole. I shut off the part of me that wouldn't want to know or be friends with the person. Their personal lives are often a shambles. The ones who don't seem like assholes are never the funniest, although, speaking of cis male tastes, I only saw one female comedian mentioned on this thread, so how about a plug for Melissa McCarthy, Kristen Wiig, Cecily Strong, Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, Kaitlin Olson (Always Sunny), et al, who might be generally more tolerable in real life while still being hilarious?

I think SNL is overrated, more bad writing than not, but you have to factor its being live. Being funny live when it's not your act is a special talent, and the best SNL moments to me are gifted performers being funny incidentally to the script, goofy personas and whatnot.

All your examples aren't stand-ups. If I listed all the sketch performers and actors I like, there'd be a lot more women. Improv seems to be more popular among women getting into comedy than stand-up

I don't think you have to be an asshole to be funny.
Steven Wright isn't an asshole. Gary Gulman isn't an asshole, neither Pete Holmes or Ron Funches. Funches persona is a guy who really likes to be high, because he is a guy who likes to be high. I prefer that energy.

That seems to be a trend now of comics trying to be more positive because the Bill Burr-style "everything sucks" screaming about everything has gotten stale, especially in a time when it feels like everything is going to hell. The quintessential example of that is Shane Torres' bit about Guy Fieri on Conan.

And since social media is the most important tool comics have to get people to come to their shows, comics can build an audience by talking about their own lives and creating that kind of connection with their fans. Taylor Tomlinson is like that.


I think SNL is better than that, but as you suggest, the best sketches are the ones that probably didn't appear to be that funny on paper. Like Cowbell, Get off the Shed or The Californians. It's all in the commitment and execution. I don't think the writing is bad so much as they've got to serve a pretty boring audience. If they could do all the weird shit that only the writers think is funny, I'd probably like it more, but it wouldn't be as popular or get laughs in the studio.

I've noticed that YouTube is awash in videos that are just a series of people's favorites five-fifteen second clips from SNL sketches. That suggests that most sketches would probably be funnier if they were shorter and just focused on the best lines. But it would be much harder to do a live show changing every minute or two.

Of course, a lot of the best SNL bits are the taped ones.

[WOM]

David Spade will continue to be one of the all-time comedy mysteries for me. Not only isn't he funny, he doesn't seem that lovely as a person. Even his own personal assistant tried to murder him.

[Bruno]

Yeah, and most who have been successful SNL cast members haven't been major standup acts. The big exceptions are Eddie Murphy and Chris Rock. Less high-profile but still successful at standup are Colin Quinn (quite good sometimes), Dana Carvey (meh), David Spade (meh), Adam Sandler (no), Dennis Miller (no), Kevin Nealon (also quite good as I remember, it's been forever), Sarah Silverman (hit and miss)... Pete Davidson I can't understand the appeal, and his recent standup special struck me as more of the same laziness. Michael Che has a special I think. Anyway, the comedy picture gets a lot more diverse when you include actors, and it seems (?) to allow for a nicer bunch of people.

[WOM]

I don't know her, but she apparently came up through improv rather than standup. Entirely different skillset, and probably way more suited to doing a sitcom than a standup would be.

[delicatemoth]

Yes she is, that show has a great cast who are an essential part of why their 'cruel' (is this a better word than 'dark'?) humour works.

[Bruno]

I did not know she did stand up, I love her in Always Sunny so will have a look.

I don't think she does much standup if any, I was just mentioning her as a great comedian, or comic actor as that's probably the more apt term. I love her.

[delicatemoth]

Omigod, I would possibly die laughing if I found a Two Ronnies episode where Corbett leans back in his chair and says that Brandon Teena line.

Kaitlin Olson (Always Sunny)

I did not know she did stand up, I love her in Always Sunny so will have a look.

[ad hoc]

Yeah, that was definitely an element of it. The earnest 'not quite getting it'. A lot of his 'funny' wasn't in the joke but in the delivery, but that's his standup roots. But there was also a quality to his jokes that had an elegance.

Also Ronnie Corbett

It's not really a criticism as such, I think both of them could be really funny, and that way of delivering what turned out to be a weak joke was actually really well done, and MacDonald was probably better at it than Corbett.

[WOM]

Yeah, that was definitely an element of it. The earnest 'not quite getting it'. A lot of his 'funny' wasn't in the joke but in the delivery, but that's his standup roots. But there was also a quality to his jokes that had an elegance. Obviously anything you read is now going to be tinged by the appalling trans joke upthread, but as I say, that wasn't the whole of the man. Watch the Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee episode with him if you're interested. (It, of course, is now obvious from his physical appearance in said that he was ill.)