Ooh... that's dated badly

[Jah Womble]

Not to defend Python's attitudes to race in general, but one of those examples ("Who does?") is a joke about a racist member of the public ("Mrs Scum" - there's a clue) being caught outside their normal frame of reference, being goaded and humiliated in a brainless tv quiz show ("tonight's star prize, a blow on the head") by a patronising and unctuous host, and talking gibberish. I think it was pretty clear that the object of the joke was stoopid tv first, and racist members of the public second. I'm not saying that those jolly funny grammar/private/Oxbridge educated lads taking the piss out of the public doesn't have it's own issues to grapple with, before even getting to the female characters in the shows, but not particularly debatable in the racism context?

Sure, first and foremost that sketch was lampooning game shows/the public, I agree, but the use of demeaning references to minorities was more than commonplace in the Monty Python lexicon. For example, Election Night Special (which was extremely funny overall) takes a swipe at Enoch Powell - but only by employing the line 'Rastus Odinga Odinga has taken Wolverhampton...an important gain for Darkie Power'.

I thought it was all grim as fuck, and I was 14, which I think was pretty much his target demographic. We're quite fond of anger leavened with jokes here, and I'm particularly fond of it, but there was too much anger for any jokes to withstand. It was listening to Bill Hicks that made me realise that some comedians are telling you a lot more about themselves than they'd like. I wonder where he would have wound up if he'd not died so young. I strongly suspect that his trajectory would have lead him rightwards all the way into the arms of the people he railed against.

Hmm, less certain of that, tbh. Hicks existed in a similar place inhabited now by comedians like Stewart Lee. With greater wisdom would've come self-deprecation and an awareness of his own limitations and shortcomings. The clues were all there, IMO: it wasn't 'all' fist-shaking anger.

Thus, I see 'Goatboy' as an aberration, rather than a betrayal of Hicks's real personality: a deliberate and unnecessary provocateur that I don't imagine would've survived.

[beak]

I wonder where he would have wound up if he'd not died so young. I strongly suspect that his trajectory would have lead him rightwards all the way into the arms of the people he railed against.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Hmm, less certain of that, tbh. Hicks existed in a similar place inhabited now by comedians like Stewart Lee. With greater wisdom would've come self-deprecation and an awareness of his own limitations and shortcomings. The clues were all there, IMO: it wasn't 'all' fist-shaking anger.

Thus, I see 'Goatboy' as an aberration, rather than a betrayal of Hicks's real personality: a deliberate and unnecessary provocateur that I don't imagine would've survived.

See that's interesting, you would have had a much more rounded awareness of comedy than me at that time, but the casual cruelty was the thing that stood out for me at the time, and tbh it still does. I don't know how that is tempered over time. The Best case scenario is you turn into Bill Maher, mid case is Denis Leary, Worst case as beak points out is alex jones.

[Lang Spoon]

He also knew Alex Jones having moved in similar Waco conspiracy circles I believe. Tbh I'd put money on Hicks 2021 being full gammon, him and Lennon.

[tee rex]

We re-watched Trading Places the other night. It makes a solid progressive anti-racist point and would be canceled today (Aykroyd in Rasta blackface if nothing else, in a terrible scene that grinds the movie to a halt). The funniest moment, unintentionally, is when Don Ameche says "Of course there's something wrong with him. He's a Negro!" Ah the 80s.

That's a good example of the chalk/cheese difference in viewing the old stuff today. The blackface scene is part of a series of 'costume gags' (the Irish priest, the Swiss/Swedish tourist) which are only there for cheap laughs and aren't making any point at all, whereas a racist character being racist absolutely requires him to say racist things.

It's obviously dated, but I'd say it's a lot more progressive (socialist, almost) in its view of economic injustice than a film today which carefully avoids any bad words, includes a diverse-looking cast to tick boxes - and then carefully avoids challenging systemic inequality.

[Satchmo Distel]

I think Hicks would have been pulled up for misogyny and possibly homophobia or transphobia at some point, which has never been applicable to Stewart Lee. Hicks was on the left but not in a way that suggested deep political thought and commitment. However, I think he would have called BS on the War on Terror, but that might simply have made him embrace Trump as a disruptor and amoral leader. I don't recall Hicks having any progressive positions of race, gender or sexuality.

[Jah Womble]

I knew both Stewart Lee along with Richard Herring in their early years and they certainly ‘were’ guilty of mild misogyny. I’ll concede it was admittedly a little more knowing - well, knowingly infantile - than anything Hicks did, but to say it has ‘never been applicable’ simply wouldn’t be accurate. (If anything, that sounds more like an opinion borne out of reverence for Stewart’s current act, which I’d concur deserves it in the main.)

I also couldn’t see Hicks as reckoning Trump to be anything bar a prize dunderhead - the material he would’ve gleaned from that guy’s lack of education doesn’t bear imagining.

But it’s all speculation, obviously.

[3 Colours Red]

Having read Love All The People, I'd say that Hicks still had just enough faith in humanity to have avoided going too far to the right. He may well have ended up drifting there a bit but not enough to go full-on rabid and swivel-eyed.

Also, whoever made that Hicks/Jones comparison composition has defeated their own point by marking out the fact that the palm lines on Jones' hands are lower down than on Hicks'.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I also couldn’t see Hicks as reckoning Trump to be anything bar a prize dunderhead - the material he would’ve gleaned from that guy’s lack of education doesn’t bear imagining.

I reckon that if you dug around, he probably slagged him off at some point. Even I knew who trump was in the late 1980's. And I was a primary school child in south tipperary.

[Patrick Thistle]

Another example from Castle (we are now on season 3). There's a terrorist threat that seems to be linked to Syria. No mention of the war there. It's described as a recruiting ground for Al Qaida. No mention of Islamic State or ISIS. The show is only 10 years old but feels like a time capsule.

[3 Colours Red]

That reminds me of Rambo III's dedication to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan... the same Mujahideen who created a power vacuum that was exploited by the Taliban.

[Satchmo Distel]

The Russians were the good guys in Hollywood WW2 movies but evil incarnate by 1950 due to the witchhunt. I've been reading Billboard from 1950-52 and every front page is Red Scare, even in the music industry.

[Patrick Thistle]

That reminds me of Rambo III's dedication to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan... the same Mujahideen who created a power vacuum that was exploited by the Taliban.

Yeah, the Mujahadeen are the good guys helping James Bond in The Living Daylights. (An objectively shit film, but I remember going to see it with my Grandma so have a certain affection for it.)

[Snake Plissken]

See also Beverly Hills Cop which as I recall (it's been a while) has a frank look at racist anxiety through Nick Nolte's character, which no one today would dare try

It was 48 Hrs with Nick Nolte, though Beverley Hills Cop did much the same with a rich/poor divide.

[G-Man]

Beverley Hills Cop was another example of mincing for comedy.

[Snake Plissken]

Not just Murphy but particularly Damon Wayons. I have no idea what Bronson Pinchot was doing.

(As an aside, I stayed at the Biltmore hotel in LA that was the "Beverly Palms Hotel" in the film. As a BHC tribute, I wanted a picture taken outside the entrance with a banana. Imagine my surprise and delight that when the Mrs and I walked out for the door to get the shot, to find that there was an unattended police car parked outside. So yes, there is a photo of me pretending to stick a banana up the tailpipe.)

[gavc23]

Yeah, the Mujahadeen are the good guys helping James Bond in The Living Daylights. (An objectively shit film, but I remember going to see it with my Grandma so have a certain affection for it.)

That was probably the first time Art Malik became the go-to British actor when they needed someone that looked vaguely Middle Eastern. Omid Djalili now picking up a lot of that work though.

[Heliotrope]

A few months ago, Saturday Night Live reran a 1996 episode with Phil Hartman as guest host, and in his opening monologue he says, "I'm a lucky man. I'd be nothing without my lovely wife, Brynn." Yikes. Actually, it was a setup for a joke, and his marriange was probably already troubled by then.

[Uncle Ethan]

Rough guide to movie villain stereotypes:
40s - Germans
50s, 60s,70s - Russians/Chinese/Commies
80s, 90s - South Africans/Japanese/Arabs
2000-2020 - Moslems
2020 - Chinese

[Snake Plissken]

88-94 was Brits, too. Either playing the baddie or being the baddie (Die Hard, No Escape, Cliffhanger)

[Snake Plissken]

Going back to Bill Hicks, I watched that Relentless show on Channel 4 and like many people it was my Sex Pistols / 1977 moment. Finally someone out there saying it, kind of thing. I suspect Hicks would have gone down the Lydon route of always being the rebel until he became the comfortable establishment rebel. I do find it interesting that people who took the outrageous outsider persona - Doug Stanhope springs immediately to mind - burned brightly for a brief while, whereas those who saw it as a viable career move (Leary, Rogan) used it to lever themselves into an absolute fortune. They never really believed in it and that was obvious right from the start.

But yeah, Hicks would have done the butter advert.

[JM Footzee]

I strongly advise not watching Up The Elephant & Round The Castle. The episode of it that I saw featured some series of mishaps leading to Jim Davidson wearing a pink negligee owned by a woman he'd just copped with and freaking out that his friends would think he was gay if they saw him in it, or something.

Good story about Davidson getting decked on the set of UTE&RTC by David Thewlis here.

With regard to Langham, there's a Not The Nine O'Clock News sketch in which some union negotiators (Smith, Jim Broadbent) wish to sleep with the wife of the boss played by Rowan Atkinson. The boss tries to bargain to the wife of his underling (Langham), but neither of the union men fancy her. There's then in hindsight a rather unfortunate gag about the eight-year-old daughter of Langham's character being "phased in" by 1991.

On Enfield, I've always been a fan of Enfield and Chums, but a lot of his sketches at least verge on being problematic. Wayne and Waynetta in particular, but also the gay Dutch policemen, Jurgen the German, the Dad that's colossally awkward with his gay son and so on. I'm not so familiar with Harry and Paul, but I've seen that rather grim Mandela sketch and they did a Dragon's Den parody where Theo Paphitis became Theo Profiterole.

[elguapo4]

The awkward Dad isn't particularly problematic that I can see. It was based on Harry's dad, the journalist Edward Enfield, who apparently behaved like that, trying to be understanding but failing, in front of Harry and his punk mates. I think the characters son and his partner are portrayed very sympathetically in those sketches, the jokes are all at the dad's expense.

[Jah Womble]

...Theo Paphitis became Theo Profiterole.

Dear me, that's weak. (As well as being ill-advised.)

[3 Colours Red]

But yeah, Hicks would have done the butter advert.

But did Lydon ever tell anyone working in the advertising industry to kill themselves?