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    #26
    American mums having naked baths with their daught

    Andy - yes, that's what I said.

    E10 - I quite explicitly claimed it was one more manifestation of habitually hypocritical behaviour. That is so far from "extrapolating from one instance" as to bear no relation whatsoever.

    And narcissistic as I may be, I don't think you post about me frequently. I just think that every time you do, it seems to be a snarky ad hominem irrelevancy. If you would try interpreting what I said, I might have grounds for claiming you had misinterpreted me. I don't claim that, because I don't see any attempt to engage, even erroneously, with the posts that draw your sarcastic barbs. Just ill-aimed sarcastic barbs.

    There are certainly some people ont he board, I don't think it's worth saying "do better" to. You aren't one of them, which is what makes the tiresomeness of this noteworthy.

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      #27
      American mums having naked baths with their daught

      If that's what you said, then I think you were being both pompous and wrong.

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        #28
        American mums having naked baths with their daught

        You don't think hypocrisy and inconsistency are substantive errors?

        It wasn't the best locution, I'll agree, but it did the work of differentiating my post from E10's pure snark.

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          #29
          American mums having naked baths with their daught

          Well it's probably best for SR to fight his own battles on this. We all of us have our inconsistencies and you can fight it out with him over what they might be, if you want.

          So anyway, this flick: any cop? It has to be said that a union-bashing film about a hippy mum that implies living with poor people is the road to oblivion is gonna take some selling.

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            #30
            American mums having naked baths with their daught

            The Japanese original has a more straightforward "Women! Aren't they hysterical and irrational?" vibe. I can't remember organised labour coming into it.

            The bathing thing seems fine to me. (Breastfeeding at five is a bit different, though, surely.)

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              #31
              American mums having naked baths with their daught

              Well, seeing as SR's "disgusting hippy" comment was meant for me, I'll take it in the spirit I presume it was intended, i.e. without malice. I've been called worse. By the way, if the Rhino thinks I was calling him uptight, it wasn't intended. Everybody's uptight about different things.

              I must admit it took me a while to come to terms with the Germans' comfort with their own nudity, but they're right. In the same way that you can have sex with clothes on, there's no reason to believe nudity equals sex. We've all got cocks, flaps, tits and whatnot, and we don't only use them for shagging. They're just parts of our bodies. I'd rather they were seen for what they are rather than purely as sexual organs.

              My wife still sometimes has a bath with our daughter, and she's four. I can't see anything wrong with that at all In fact, like G-Man, I think it's quite sweet. Sometimes the missus suggests that the little 'un gets in with me like she used to when she was a baby, but I don't do that because I feel uncomfortable with it. There's no logical reason why I ought to, I just do. Cultural upbringing, I suppose.

              It seems to me to be a very Anglo-Saxon thing, this fear of nudity, or even fear of children. There's a completely different attitude here, and I find it much healthier. At my daughter's kindergarten, they let them all run around naked on hot days in the summer. That would not only get the place closed down in the UK, but would probably also be front page news for a month.

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                #32
                American mums having naked baths with their daught

                how do you teach them - in a way that a five year old can understand - that just because it's okay for one authority-figure to get naked with them, it isn't okay for any other authority-figures in the rest of life to get naked with them?
                The same way you teach them not to take sweets from a stranger or get into a car without the say-so from Mom or Dad.

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                  #33
                  American mums having naked baths with their daught

                  Also, your attitudes change when you become a parent. I know mine did. The people who seem the most disgusted by it on this thread are the ones without kids of their own.

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                    #34
                    American mums having naked baths with their daught

                    Pan Tau wrote:
                    The same way you teach them not to take sweets from a stranger or get into a car without the say-so from Mom or Dad.
                    Well, I'm glad that Baroudeur at least took my question in the spirit it was meant - i.e. one of genuine inquisitiveness over how one educates your children over what constitutes 'right' and 'wrong' and how one applies it.

                    Pan Tau's response, above, isn't an answer at all, really.

                    I only elaborated in the rather garish and sensationalist way I did, in my previous post, so that no-one could say "what are you implying?" because it was made perfectly clear.

                    I realised that questioning 'that which is never questioned' - in this case the logic and practice of child-rearing - would possibly stir up a shitstorm. But, I think that assuming people just inherently know how to raise children is something that needs to be questioned.

                    I realise and acknowledge that I am woefully immature. But at the same time, this helps me see certain aspects of the world much in the same way that a child would and innocently question "Why?" over things that are routinely just assumed. In particular, I think that assuming that child-rearing practices just 'come naturally' smacks of the same attitude in the recently-used thread title over on World: "'Etiquette', dear boy, is simply bred into one " ...except swap 'etiquette' for 'child-rearing' in this case. I think it's more that people are uncomfortable questioning what they're doing.

                    Now, I know that everyone sees their parents naked eventually - I think I may have even been bathed, as a baby, by my mother at the same time as she was having hers - but how do we delineate when such behaviour stops and how do we explain 'what has (so suddenly) changed' to our infant children? How do we expect them to rationalise such stuff?

                    Alderman Barnes wrote:
                    Also, your attitudes change when you become a parent. I know mine did. The people who seem the most disgusted by it on this thread are the ones without kids of their own.
                    ...So doesn't that make us the very ones who should be most inquisitive about the child-rearing process? Or are you simply saying we should shut up as we have no right to question these things?

                    Back to the shitstorm, then...

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                      #35
                      American mums having naked baths with their daught

                      Clive, I'm not trying to come across as all wordly-wise and "un-uptight", but I'm struggling to see what the problem is.

                      I don't think I saw my mother naked until I was about ten and my parents bought an ultraviolet tanning lamp, which we all had to sit in front of wearing tinted swimming glasses as if we were from Archangelsk and suffering from vitamin B disorder, and I sat there with my naked mum thinking "this is fucking weird". I'd rather my daughter didn't have to think that.

                      I don't see why it has to be such a big, disturbing deal.

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                        #36
                        American mums having naked baths with their daught

                        ...So doesn't that make us the very ones who should be most inquisitive about the child-rearing process? Or are you simply saying we should shut up as we have no right to question these things?
                        No, no, no - not at all! I'd just noticed that the first few posters who had contributed to the thread were people without kids, and (so I think anyway) the fact whether or not you have kids alters your opinion on it.

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                          #37
                          American mums having naked baths with their daught

                          I harbour as many murderous feelings towards hippies as the next person of my generation, but I'm a bit taken aback at all this buttoned-up-ness, really. We don't have baths with our kids, and didn't when they were five, and it wouldn't have been our cup of tea, but the idea that it's harmful seems odd to me.

                          And to be completely honest, the idea that it increases their risk of being fiddled with by some perve seems preposterous. If there's "logic" in Clive's position I'm missing it.

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                            #38
                            American mums having naked baths with their daught

                            Didn't see the remake. The original has one blindingly magnificent chilling moment, but it's not really worth waiting for. There's much better Asian Ghost Chillers, like Tale of Two Sisters or the Thai Shutter.

                            I'd assume the American version figured that the ghost had no real reason to haunt (of which I thought,) and thus added the unionized worker.

                            Interesting point about moving to a poorer neighborhood, but to be honest there's more than quite a few films about the reverse (poorer family moving to richer neighborhood that's full of vampires or whatever.)

                            As far as 5-year-olds bathing with their parent, especially a daughter and mom, I see no problem. Dad and daughter, ehh, not something I'd do. But not wrong.

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                              #39
                              American mums having naked baths with their daught

                              Honestly? Again prefacing with this is me and not neccessarily Dr Spocks method. You don't. You just tell them what's right in your opinion. Everything else goes out of the window because you would get so tied up in knots if you tried to come up with rules for every situation that you'd never maintain consistency. Nobody knows at the birth how to bring up children. There is nothing like the sheer unadulterated terror of watching the midwife walk away after strapping this 'thing' in your car that you are completely and utterly responsible for! Your first child is a frenzy of diving for medical textbooks, trips to A&E, ringing NHS direct. The second one is more a case of 'ah fuck it they're quite bendy!'

                              Basically what I'm saying is that you will make mistakes and you will have to change the rules sometimes because, like you say, some things are inappropriate as you get older (I currently have a two year old who likes to barge in and climb on top of you while you're sitting on the loo! Actually now I think about it that's never been appropriate!). Usually it takes three days for them to stop whining about it when you make the change. We went cold turkey with my youngest's dummy (don't get me started with the arrogance of strangers over that issue!)and it took two days for her not to mention it. All we had to do was start her on the Marlboro Lights!

                              Oh and AB, that lamp thing is genius! It sounds like you lived in a sitcom! They obviously had a bet on what you'd talk about in your first therapy session! ;-)

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                                #40
                                American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                Pan Tau's response, above, isn't an answer at all, really.
                                I'm sorry you took it like that, Clive. It was a serious answer. We instructed our son in things like the danger of strangers and of people who might want to touch him inappropriately.

                                My parents used to walk around naked while dressing or after a bath without embarrassment, and I don't mind my son seeing me having a shower or walking around naked. He's cool with it (though he doesn't walk around naked, which is normal for his age).

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                                  #41
                                  American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                  There is nothing like the sheer unadulterated terror of watching the midwife walk away after strapping this 'thing' in your car that you are completely and utterly responsible for!
                                  Speak for yourself. I thought it was fucking brilliant.

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                                    #42
                                    American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                    Baroudeur, without wanting to go all prescriptivist on your arse, have you tried the Dummy Fairy? Works a treat: child is finally dummy-free and richer in sweets, thus releasing dummy resources for Poor Children In Africa.

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                                      #43
                                      American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                      I think when you live in an uptight culture, as I do, you have to be uptight about this sort of thing. I understand perfectly what Clive is saying and I think it's reasonable to think that. If a young child went to daycare/kindergarten/school and even just happened to mention to a teacher or care provider in passing that he or she had baths with either of their parents, those parents would have child protective services breathing down their necks so fast, they wouldn't know what happened. They might even lose custody of their own kids until it was determined that there was no actual molestation going on.

                                      It would definitely cause a family more trouble than it would be worth to experience a 'beautiful thing'. You can have plenty of beautiful experiences with your kids, and you can certainly teach them that the adult/other gender human body is natural and beautiful without getting naked in the tub with them.

                                      Also, I don't take baths, so that aspect of it alone is reason enough for me not to do it.

                                      PS I have never seen my parents naked, and frankly, I don't really want to.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                        If a young child went to daycare/kindergarten/school and even just happened to mention to a teacher or care provider in passing that he or she had baths with either of their parents, those parents would have child protective services breathing down their necks so fast, they wouldn't know what happened.
                                        That's just not the case.

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                                          #45
                                          American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                          WE - I'm not sure how you can make that statement. Do you know every single teacher and care provider in the USA personally?

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                                            #46
                                            American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                            FF, are you simply saying that stupidly overzealous teachers and social workers exist? I read you as claiming they were typical: that this kind of overreaction was in some sense the way child protection worked in general. It's that that isn't the case.

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                                              #47
                                              American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                              I really am finding all this a bit surprising. As a lad, at our beach chalet at Sutton-on-Sea, I've not only seen my old man's old man, but that of my step-uncle Nev, who's now the Bishop of Brechin. (Easy now, he's an Anglican.) Ginger pubes, he had then, though I expect by now they're a distinguished shade of grey befitting his ecclesiastical seniority and gravitas.

                                              I mean, we didn't wander around like a bunch of nudists or anything, but you've got to change out of your wet cozzy if you want to play beach cricket and go for an ice cream, and that Mr Bean-style obsessive covering-up is silly. This stuff about the perves'll get 'em/the social 'll get 'em just seems really hyped up. No they won't.

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                                                #48
                                                American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                                Who was the newsreader who got in trouble for having photos of her kid on the bath?

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                                                  #49
                                                  American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                                  Wyatt Earp wrote:

                                                  If there's "logic" in Clive's position I'm missing it.
                                                  Wyatt, I'm not taking a "position". I'm asking a question. As someone who doesn't know the answer, since I don't have the experience, surely that's the way to learn things?

                                                  I think it's fascinating how people approach such things differently. What FF said is particularly interesting, as it indicates a possible instituionalised cultural difference - one presumably born out of some kind of experience.

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                                                    #50
                                                    American mums having naked baths with their daught

                                                    EIM wrote:
                                                    Who was the newsreader who got in trouble for having photos of her kid on the bath?
                                                    Julia Somerville.

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