Normal People

[ursus arctos]

It is a reasonably big thing (in terms of national titles) at the Ivies as well, though I managed never to encounter anyone involved until I began practicing law. One of my best work friends turns out to have regularly tusseled with Ted Cruz back in the day.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

American debating is weird. The aim is to throw out up to 30 points in favour of something, and then the other side has to say a few words about each and if they only mention 29 they lose but if they cram in 31 they win. It's about talking fast and good memory.

[ursus arctos]

There are different competitions with rather different rules (these I only learned about when ursus minor went to a high school with one of the best teams in the country).

The 78 rpm stuff is the bread and butter of what is called "policy" debating over here. "Lincoln Douglas" and "Parliamentary" are a more substantive, but less widely practiced.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Yeah, Policy debating. I always felt that said so much about american politics when I heard that. Parliamentary debating is the thing that happens in europe, and what Americans have to do if they want to compete internationally. What is lincoln douglas debating?

[ursus arctos]

Lincoln–Douglas debate (commonly abbreviated as LD Debate, or simply LD) is a type of one-on-one debate practiced mainly in the United States at the high school level. It is sometimes also called values debate because the format traditionally places a heavy emphasis on logic, ethical values, and philosophy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linc..._debate_format

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I was reading down through that and thinking that it sounded very interesting, and then it went very very badly off the rails, like a train smashing through a primary school playground.

"Flow" is the thing that I couldn't quite follow.

[ursus arctos]

Much of American life follows that pattern

[Hot Pepsi]

American debating is weird. The aim is to throw out up to 30 points in favour of something, and then the other side has to say a few words about each and if they only mention 29 they lose but if they cram in 31 they win. It's about talking fast and good memory.

I never understood the point of that. Talking very fast is only tangentially related to critical thinking.

It wasn’t really a thing at my school, but I don’t know why. I knew some people at W&M who had done competitive debate in high school but I didn’t know anyone who did it at college.

Indeed, among just about everyone I knew - including myself - there was a strong desire to not do most of the stuff we’d done in high school, especially all of those competitive resume-padding activities.

That attitude may have been very particular to my social circle, or perhaps there was something going on in the early 90s. Certainly, by the time I got to grad school, I was quite sick of people who tried to win arguments for the sake of winning them. Probably that’s why I washed out of academia.


I’m persisting with the show, despite my previous reservations. It’s very good, though I still don’t quite grasp why he felt like they had to keep their relationship a secret and take that other girl to the dance. There’s sone unstated context I’m not quite getting.

I love that his mom called him out on it. She’s my favorite character.

My half-ass internet research shows that “the debs” is almost exactly like a senior prom. It looked that way on the show, except that there’s booze. And it often happens in the summer after school is done rather than in the spring before the end.

Did that used to entail the actual debutant “coming out” thing? Because that aspect of it wasn’t mentioned. That tradition still happens in a few places in the US, but it is separate from the school prom.

And Marianne’s social circle drinks wine. Out of glasses. Red and white. Nobody I knew in college drank wine unless it was really lousy and consumed straight out of the bottle. Indeed, pouring a drink of any kind into a glass - unless it was a shot - seemed needlessly fussy and perhaps a bit pretentious.

That might just be in my head based on my particular set of experiences and influences. Or maybe that’s another 90s thing. There was a lot of concern about being “real” and “not selling out” that manifested in a lot of weird ways. That doesn’t seem to be a thing any more.

[ad hoc]

I had to judge a debating competition last year. I probably should have read up on conventions before doing so.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

[Indeed, among just about everyone I knew - including myself - there was a strong desire to not do most of the stuff we’d done in high school, especially all of those competitive resume-padding activities.

See that doesn't exist here. You get into college on the basis of your Leaving certificate exams. There's no explicit pressure to do things for that sort of reason. And I can't imagine anything that would fucking sap the love out of any activity quicker than having to do it to get into college. That sort of competitive debating thing is an offshoot of chamber speaking, which is just getting up in fromt of a room of people and talking to them. Telling stories, and jokes, and occasionally having a broader point. There are few better buzzes than lthat slight gasps that come when landing a joke that no-one expected. It's only really useful when it comes to making speeches at weddings, or if for some reason you have to talk into a microphone. It also makes you consider the other person's position and their likely avenues of approach, which if you're more than a bit neurotic is actually pretty easy. But it also changes the way that you argue, because it makes you very aware that the other person is also going to have their say. For instance it is why I struggle to tolerate politicians who primarily preach to the converted. but the key thing to remember is that competitive debating is definitely not a spectator sport, which is what makes it so fucking weird, and it is undoubtedly ridiculously weird, whereas chamber speaking is only a spectator sport.

And Marianne’s social circle drinks wine. Out of glasses. Red and white. Nobody I knew in college drank wine unless it was really lousy and consumed straight out of the bottle. Indeed, pouring a drink of any kind into a glass - unless it was a shot - seemed needlessly fussy and perhaps a bit pretentious.

If they're drinking it at home or at a party, it's €8 for 750 ml of 14% alcohol by volume wine. If it's in a pub, they are super pretentious, because it is extremely poor value. and you can do better for the money you are spending.

[Bored Of Education]

We watched the first episode and Mrs B remembered that she had read the book. I find the first episode reasonably compelling and certainly well acted but couldn't believe that it finished and nothing really happened. Well, certainly nothing that hasn't happened millions of times before so nothing really to write home (or, indeed, a 12 part series) about. Mrs B said that it got more interesting so I watched the second one and, again, nothing happened. It was starting to feel like a teenage Before/After Midnight/Sunset - two people being overwrought about their relationships walking around taking a lot (with a lot more sex scenes in this). Indeed, the characters were starting to really grate on me, Marianne turning from a strong opinionated girl at the start to a doormat and Connell who seems like a decent sort acting the cunt by ignoring here and her putting up with it for two and half episodes. Finally, after Connell's mum being the only character who seemed to be showing any sense at all about their actions, she finally dumps and ignores him and that is the end of the third episode. I am, by now, completely exasperated by nothing extraordinary happening but Mrs B says that there is stuff coming up (and certainly the massive foreshadowing of Marianne's brother and mother suggest it). I can only imagine that many people are drawn to it by whatever happens in the book because, in reality, what has been covered in 3 episodes could quite easily be the first 15 minutes of a reasonable feature film and, without the book draw and the word-of-mouth recommendations, it would have died a death by now. In fact, Mrs B said that she can't remember it having so much sex in the book which means that actually less is happening in the book which is hard to believe. As it is lock down (possibly another factor in its favour), I am going to give it another go tomorrow but something had better happen, anything, to make me want to spend anything like another 9 episodes with these angsty kids. I genuinely was hoping that there was going to be, at least, a Carrie-esque scene in the Debs ball.

[Bored Of Education]

I enjoyed it.

Lacked a really good ending maybe.

Hold on, what? The series lacked a good ending? Oh, for fuck's sake, this doesn't bode well for tomorrow. Agreed about the performances of the leads, though.

[E10 Rifle]

I'm six episodes in and find it incredibly compelling. There are some quibbles - the 'it crowd' types at TCD are bit too cartoonishly twatty, Marianne's transition from school oddball to glowingly alluring confident undergrad a bit too smooth - but you find yourself rooting for both the main characters, who are brilliantly played, and yeah, it stays with you.

Nice to see Sligo when it's not raining too - a rarity in my (limited) experience, though I found it a nice enough old town.

[Incandenza]

We watched the first episode and Mrs B remembered that she had read the book. I find the first episode reasonably compelling and certainly well acted but couldn't believe that it finished and nothing really happened. Well, certainly nothing that hasn't happened millions of times before so nothing really to write home (or, indeed, a 12 part series) about. Mrs B said that it got more interesting so I watched the second one and, again, nothing happened. It was starting to feel like a teenage Before/After Midnight/Sunset - two people being overwrought about their relationships walking around taking a lot (with a lot more sex scenes in this). Indeed, the characters were starting to really grate on me, Marianne turning from a strong opinionated girl at the start to a doormat and Connell who seems like a decent sort acting the cunt by ignoring here and her putting up with it for two and half episodes. Finally, after Connell's mum being the only character who seemed to be showing any sense at all about their actions, she finally dumps and ignores him and that is the end of the third episode. I am, by now, completely exasperated by nothing extraordinary happening but Mrs B says that there is stuff coming up (and certainly the massive foreshadowing of Marianne's brother and mother suggest it). I can only imagine that many people are drawn to it by whatever happens in the book because, in reality, what has been covered in 3 episodes could quite easily be the first 15 minutes of a reasonable feature film and, without the book draw and the word-of-mouth recommendations, it would have died a death by now. In fact, Mrs B said that she can't remember it having so much sex in the book which means that actually less is happening in the book which is hard to believe. As it is lock down (possibly another factor in its favour), I am going to give it another go tomorrow but something had better happen, anything, to make me want to spend anything like another 9 episodes with these angsty kids. I genuinely was hoping that there was going to be, at least, a Carrie-esque scene in the Debs ball.

I don't want to spoil anything, but having just read the book last month, I'll let you know that there isn't a moment of high drama or a shocking twist coming up. Or at least there wasn't in the book, perhaps the show takes the source material and ramps it up, but from what I've heard I doubt it. I think this may be something that works better as a book.

[San Bernardhinault]

I've not read Normal People, but BE's description chimes with my feeling about Rooney's previous book, Conversations With Friends. It was overwrought, overrated, and nothing much that I cared about happened to people that I didn't care about. Lots of people I know loved it, but it's not for me. I'll be giving Normal People a relatively wide berth.

[Jimski]

I really enjoyed the book, and thought that the first four episodes (which are all I've seen so far) have done the book justice and been utterly compelling. Normally I am fairly critical of adaptations of books I've enjoyed, but this one feels spot on.

[Bored Of Education]

I don't want to spoil anything, but having just read the book last month, I'll let you know that there isn't a moment of high drama or a shocking twist coming up. Or at least there wasn't in the book, perhaps the show takes the source material and ramps it up, but from what I've heard I doubt it. I think this may be something that works better as a book.

I may come back to you on that when I watch the next couple of episodes. From the looks of it, after the move to Uni, something happens but it remains to be seen whether it makes it worth persevering with. Mind you, whatever happens, I can't see it justifying the first three episodes which really could have been condensed into a half hour episode, 45 minutes tops. Indeed, I wonder if this is an issue with the half hour episodes, perhaps if the first three episodes had been condensed into, say, a 50 minute episode, it would have moved along at a better clip. Still not much would have happened of great import but, at least, it wouldn't have taken so long not to happen.

I can't help thinking that this is something that has come out of the trend for box sets now for binge watching which has also benefited from the lockdown. A decade or so ago, it may have just been a film or shortish series rather than 12 episodes. Still we shall see...

[Incandenza]

I can't help thinking that this is something that has come out of the trend for box sets now for binge watching which has also benefited from the lockdown. A decade or so ago, it may have just been a film or shortish series rather than 12 episodes. Still we shall see...

Yeah, there's definitely something there. As I understand it, Normal People was done by the BBC and I don't know if they are following the same mindset of Netflix/Amazon Prime Video/Hulu, etc. but there are definitely recent series that I enjoyed but felt they could have been much shorter. But I guess with one stand-alone film or a series with fewer episodes, there's less time that the viewer spends watching the service, and less chance for them to click over to something else. I don't know how the people have the time to watch numerous documentary series with like 8 hour long episodes, or if they just put them on and do other things at the same time and drift in and out.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I've not read Normal People, but BE's description chimes with my feeling about Rooney's previous book, Conversations With Friends. It was overwrought, overrated, and nothing much that I cared about happened to people that I didn't care about. Lots of people I know loved it, but it's not for me. I'll be giving Normal People a relatively wide berth.

The book may not necessarily be aimed at us though. Judging by Twitter reaction in ireland, it seems to be well on its way to be "Dirty dancing," or "Shirley Valentine" for women who went to college in ireland in the last 20 years. that's not meant to denigrate any of those three artistic efforts. I fucking loved shirley valentine. But not as much as my mam. That film wasn;t speaking directly to me.

Lenny Abrahamson is getting more attention for this than he got for his best director oscar nomination.

[San Bernardhinault]

Oh, it's very clearly not targeted at me. My experience of Conversations with Friends suggests that I should just accept that rather than trying to work out why I'm failing to hold on to this bit of the zeitgeist.

[Hot Pepsi]

It’s definitely a few episodes too long, but just doing it as a film would have been too short.

[Nefertiti2]

I thought Conversations with Friends was fantastic- haven’t liked a book so much since Jennifer Egan’s A Visit from the Goon Squad

Haven’t watched this yet, but looking forward to it.

[Hot Pepsi]

I’m curious to read it. I don’t read much literature by real literature nerds.

[Incandenza]

It's definitely a quick read.

[Nocturnal Submission]

The book may not necessarily be aimed at us though. Judging by Twitter reaction in ireland, it seems to be well on its way to be "Dirty dancing," or "Shirley Valentine" for women who went to college in ireland in the last 20 years. that's not meant to denigrate any of those three artistic efforts. I fucking loved shirley valentine. But not as much as my mam. That film wasn;t speaking directly to me.

Lenny Abrahamson is getting more attention for this than he got for his best director oscar nomination.

You confused me there. I wondered why you were bothering to tell us that you loved your mum more than a film, or possibly Pauline Collins.