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    #51
    That's a good point, and I think A Hard Day's Night needed those predecessors. You also had Coronation Street starting in 1960.

    So maybe the focus should be on the BBC and the impact The Beatles had with their Saturday sessions and then with Lennon reading his poetry on arts programmes and so on, then Cilla piggybacking on that? Profumo Affair exposing the decadence of the ruling class was also important, although I'm not sure Harold Wilson was more of a class leveller than Atlee culturally despite the White Heat of Technology discourse.
    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 09-07-2019, 14:36.

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      #52
      Originally posted by hobbes View Post
      There are two sets of royalties in music. One for the performance, one for the writing of the music. The latter is encompassed by the publishing rights.
      Often when bands are young and stupid they'll sign away the publishing rights to the label either for cut of the publishing royalties or for nothing if they're badly advised.

      Performance royalties tend to be much smaller than publishing royalties. Which is why Ken from Take That is considerably richer than the surly one. And why Robbie Williams is down as co-writer on all his solo stuff despite not having a jot to do with it. And why these shady Scandinavian song writers all have shit tons of cash.
      Thanks.

      I read up a bit. The Beatles turned Northern Songs into a public company for tax reasons (I don't know what those tax reasons were), but continued to own shares. Harrison and/or Ringo sold their shares at some point and then a big chunk of the company was sold to another company and then Michael Jackson bought that. Why McCartney and Yoko Ono didn't try to bid for them, I don't know, especially given that McCartney was sore about Jackson getting them. Or perhaps he was just upset that he let their songs be sold to Nike. Etc. I assume all four of them or their heirs are still getting royalties too, but I'm not sure. And, in any event, the rights now belong to Sony after a series of complicated transactions.

      There's currently a big kerfuffle about Taylor Swift's first albums being sold to somebody she despises. I don't know the details, but I heard about it because my niece is on #teamtaylor and upset about it. Swift claims she didn't have a chance to bid for them but other reports say her father/manager chose not to. I suspect its a case of a young artist without leverage and inexperienced management making a deal to become a star and not understanding the potential long-term implications.

      There are probably a lot of one-hit wonders that would have been no-hit wonders if they hadn't signed label-friendly deals. Now all they have to show for it are memories, but at least they have that. But in general, it seems like the thing to do is to not take much money up front, hold onto your rights, and be willing to tour relentlessly

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        #53
        She did tour a lot to be fair to her. My youngest daughter and her friends were big fans when she was still in her teens and doing predominantly country. They must have seen her three times before there was a big arena type tour.

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          #54
          Yeah she did and still does, I believe.
          I was just pointing out the general strategy that seems to work best for bands hoping to have long careers.

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            #55
            Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
            Swift claims she didn't have a chance to bid for them but other reports say her father/manager chose not to.
            Her father has an investment firm that was bought out by Merrill Lynch. I would be impressed if it was parental naivete.

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              #56
              What you wouldn't have is the strands of humour, music and style that were incorporated into other bands. No ELO, a less interesting Abba, obviously no Oasis, maybe no Slade, less interesting Glam.

              See I don't know if this is true. There were loads of cheeky lad bands back at the same time as the Beatles, but they were all washed away in the massive tide. Also a lot of the quirkiness in the beatles comes from them loving a) musichall and b) the goons and radio comedy. It's a long time since I've seen it, but a hard days night owes an awful lot to spike milligan. The Album is fucking brilliant. Actually one of the musical moments I would have like to have been there for is the first playing of Hard Days night on the radio.

              See the thing is that Music hall and its traditions are shot right through White english music. it became the repository of a lot of your folk traditions as they were tidied up, and commercialized. (Something quite similar happened here in the victorian era) it's the English Schlager, and something worth noting is that if Paul McCartney had been born in hamburg, and gone to Liverpool to play for 18 months, he would have been the king of Schlager. You can hear it so clearly in when I'm 64 and so many others. This is where the Abba comparison becomes interesting. Abba were a schlager band, who transcended the genre. It took them a decade or more of schlagering to reach the point where they were at the same point as the beatles after a year and a half in hamburg. But they were going their own road.

              I suppose really maybe the neatest way of looking at it, was the beatles really fucking moved fast, and they crammed an awful lot of stuff into a very short space of time. I think they managed to gather together a variety of stuff that was bubbling under and available to all other bands, but they just got it done, and made a variety of stuff popular in a hell of a hurry. Rather than doing things that were particularly unique, they seem to have acted as an accelerant as much as anything else. Then again, it's worth considering that they also cast a very long shadow that made it a bit awkward to follow them. They Did become national treasures, and it's a little difficult to see them in their original context, when you probably learned beatles songs in primary school.

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                #57
                It seems McCartney last year reclaimed a greater share of his (and presumably Yoko's) royalties from Sony, who now own/control them. US copyright law means the rights can revert to the original owner after 56 years which meant it was a very good time to be getting it sorted, just after Love Me Do.

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                  #58
                  Rock n roll was yesterday's news, and Trad Jazz was where the hip kids were at in 62 in Britain. It was also dying and back in the marginalized black ghetto in the US. Without the Beatles, would 4/4 have become the sound of teen dreams again? Non Mowtown/girl group popular music in the US especially might have stayed Como white (in feel) without the Beatles. And the Kinks/Stones etc a British phenom exclusively. Also there is the massive importance of Lennon/McCartney writing their own stuff along with the covers- without that the Stones might have stayed bloodless blues cover band. The Beach Boys would prob still have happened in a similar way, but have been even more psych Perry Como by 66 without the spur of Rubber Soul etc.
                  Last edited by Lang Spoon; 09-07-2019, 21:56.

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                    #59
                    Without the Beatles, would 4/4 have become the sound of teen dreams again?

                    You think that the waltz would have made a comeback? By 1964 if you couldn't dance the polka, then you were nothing on the mean streets of wolverhampton.....Pretty much the only piece of popular music that I know that isn't in 4/4 is design for life by the manics, which is a jig

                    Did the Beatles invent Stadium tours? Maybe other acts played stadia before them, but those shea stadium gigs are extraordinary. there was something seriously weird going on at those shows

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                      #60
                      Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                      Her father has an investment firm that was bought out by Merrill Lynch. I would be impressed if it was parental naivete.
                      I didnít know that.

                      Maybe not naÔvetť, but not understanding her priorities, which is worse.

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                        #61
                        Must admit I thought today's megastars were better advised than in the era of Prince, George Michael and before.

                        Who'd have thought such an average film would generate such a great thread?

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                          #62
                          Originally posted by Guy Profumo View Post
                          Something that struck us at work today from those of us who've seen it.

                          If Oasis didn't exist in this universe, how did Jack sing "Wonderwall"?
                          SPOILERS




                          Your love spoilers, don't you, Guy. You've preempted one of the film's better gags there.

                          In the new alternate reality he hadn't sung 'Wonderwall' though he still recalled it from the previous reality as he's (almost) the only one who remembers that reality, We're forced to presume he sang a different song that was the catalyst for Ellie's crush in school.

                          As a fan of Curtis's work, I don't think it's a great example. I like the central conceit and the first half barrels along very enjoyably with a lot of laugh out loud moments but the second half's "dealing with imminent success" (though not actual success, weirdly) narrative and attempts to address the will they/won't they love story were very clunky.

                          I could have done without the cameo (and that's another spoiler and a massively unfair one in one of your early posts, Guy. You really should have taken it down) and the final concert section altogether. A lot of the latter was Danny Boyle's idea apparently (Curtis says 25% of the film was altered from his original script by Boyle) and I'm not sure who is to blame between him and Curtis for the film losing it's way. The more successful opening half certainly feels more like Richard Curtis on solid ground.
                          Last edited by Ray de Galles; 19-07-2019, 08:57.

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                            #63
                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                            The Beach Boys would prob still have happened in a similar way, but have been even more psych Perry Como by 66 without the spur of Rubber Soul etc.
                            I love it when you write "sentences" like that.

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                              #64
                              It's a gift.

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                                #65
                                Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                It's a gift.
                                It's a bit like Mark E. Smith's lyrics. Don't ever change. Seriously.

                                Ye fucking bas but.
                                ​​

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                                  #66
                                  I bow to yr constructive(?) criticism-ah. Ya bas ken.

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                                    #67
                                    Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post

                                    SPOILERS




                                    Your love spoilers, don't you, Guy. You've preempted one of the film's better gags there.

                                    In the new alternate reality he hadn't sung 'Wonderwall' though he still recalled it from the previous reality as he's (almost) the only one who does. We're forced to presume he sang a different song that was the catalyst for Ellie's crush in school.

                                    As a fan of Curtis's work, I don't think it's a great example. I like the central conceit and the first half barrels along very enjoyably with a lot of laugh out loud moments but the second half's "dealing with imminent success" narrative (though not actual success, weirdly) and attempts to address the will they/won't they love story were very clunky.

                                    I could have done without the cameo (and that's another spoiler and a massively unfair one in one of your early posts, Guy. You really should have taken it down) and the final concert section altogether. A lot of the latter was Danny Boyle's idea apparently (Curtis says 25% of the film was altered from his original script by Boyle) and I'm not sure who is to blame between him and Curtis for the film losing it's way. The more successful opening half certainly feels more like Richard Curtis on solid ground.
                                    I can't stand either director so blamed schmaltz on Curtis and flash angles on Boyle.

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                                      #68
                                      It's better than Trainspotting 2, but that was utterly woecious. And had Egregious McGregor in it. Who can't even do a plausible Embra accent despite being born what 80 miles north, the Scotch Aiden Gillen afore that Carcetti Love/Hate eejit was a thing.

                                      That shite with good auld Ewen and John borman's chubby son Biking round teh wurld might be the most pre coalition austeritycrat bollocks this side of the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony being seen as a Good Thing that brought us together (we luv the NHS!), as opposed to economic collapse distraction.
                                      Last edited by Lang Spoon; 19-07-2019, 00:00.

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                                        #69
                                        That screed didn't even make sense in my head. But fuck McGregor. And fuck Boyle. Boorman can make tea.

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                                          #70
                                          The bit about mcGregor made a lot of sense.

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                                            #71
                                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post

                                            I can't stand either director so blamed schmaltz on Curtis and flash angles on Boyle.
                                            While Curtis has directed some of his own films he's primarily a writer and that's the role he had on 'Yesterday'.

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                                              #72
                                              It's an okay movie, but inevitably sells itself out in the way that all Curtis's creations tend to do - mainly via the inevitable 'they were in love all along'-angle.

                                              However, in getting da yout' to understand who and what The Beatles were and what they achieved, it succeeds given that it places everybody else in the plot into their (potentially similar) position of ignorance. Using Sheeran as a touchstone was, I guess, 'essential' to give the movie some current context - and I'll concede that he is fairly good in it - but the conceit that he's only just below Lennon/McCartney in the overall pecking order is hugely gauche and also very misleading: Sheeran really isn't even close to that level and somebody needs to start informing the next generation of this truth.

                                              And that comment upthread is indeed a spoiler. Glad I didn't read this until just now.

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                                                #73
                                                I saw this and really loved it way more than I could have expected.

                                                The story-telling, especially the romance part, was a bit clunky but I like both of the leads so it’s fine. Kate McKinnon alone was worth the price of the rental, but I don’t know if the “sudden superstardom” plotline made sense. I’m not sure the Beatles songs would actually be massively popular in 2019 because I don’t know if kids care about songwriting any more. I have no opinion on Ed Sheeran.

                                                But that’s not the point of the story and I loved it mostly because it reminded me how fuckinf good The Beatles really were. That’s not a edgy opinion and I know Lennon, especially, was kinda full of shit, but their songs were/are fantastic. And they did almost all of it before 30.

                                                So much so that it’s hard to imagine any of popular music - not just Oasis - existing as it does if they hadn’t existed. They’re like the Shakespeare of pop. You can’t “get around” them.

                                                ***spoiler***

                                                My favorite bits were with those two older people who also remembered the Beatles and how much it meant to them and how happy they were to hear the songs. I love a lot of pop music - including a lot of Beatles - that much. It really is that powerful and we/I shouldn’t let cynicism stand in the way of that love. It was just so wonderfully and shamelessly sentimental.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                                                  And they did almost all of it before 30.
                                                  George Harrison was 27 when they called it quits. It's insane how prolific they were at such a young age.

                                                  I did appreciate how those two older people were teased as a major threat in the film, and then they were revealed to be anything but.

                                                  I think a subset of the Beatles songs would be massively popular when released in 2019, but I find it difficult to imagine which subset.

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                                                    #75
                                                    I saw this recently. It's an odd premise for a film. The only asian man in Suffolk (bar his parents) is an eejit who has put off taking up his teaching job, in order to pursue a wildly unsuccessful career as a singer songwriter, yet somehow doesn't realize that the best looking woman in suffolk is spending an insane amount of time with him, and doesn't think he sings like a prat, even though she could literally be doing anything else. which may lead him to subconsciously suspect that she is an emotionally damaged head wrecker who probably isn't worth the hassle. there is some parallel universe bollocks that is largely irrelevant, and the movie is resolved when she has a passive aggressive emotional meltdown and emotionally blackmails him into giving up his dreams and take up his job teaching, so they can afford to buy a house or something. There didn't appear to be any jokes that didn't involve ed sheeran.

                                                    a solid 2/10/

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