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  • Benjm
    replied
    Originally posted by MonkeyHarris View Post
    Someone mentioned Chandler and his depictions of LA. I've read several of his works and enjoy his style but there are always incidents lacking in sufficient description for me to understand exactly what happened. Been a while so can't isolate specifics but I'm generally left slightly empty at the end of his stories.
    That's a fair point. Plotting wasn't Chandler's priority; the narratives in his novels often have loose ends. He told a story himself of being asked by the film makers to clarify who killed one of the characters in The Big Sleep and not knowing the answer. This may have been exaggerated for comic effect but shows that he was relaxed about the issue in a way that an author who primarily prided themselves on their puzzle making, Agatha Christie for example, might not be.

    He was in the habit of recycling and mashing up old storylines from his magazine writing days, with slightly messy and sprawling results. His themes of corruption and symbiosis between the wealthy, criminal and governing classes are supported by the confusion but reaching a neat resolution doesn't especially matter. The Long Goodbye, his last fully realised novel, was written when he had become thoroughly bored with the requirements of the genre. This is most apparent in the time frame. Whereas hard boiled stories usually take place at breakneck speed over a day or two, in The Long Goodbye weeks and months pass without anything much happening.

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  • MonkeyHarris
    replied
    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
    Recently read Dorothy B. Hughes's The Scarlet Imperial and Patricia Highsmith's Deep Water back to back. Highsmith, at least in my book, isn't a noir writer by any stretch but certainly underlines who is. Her's is the more satisying effort here, in fact Ripliad aside, it's probably the most compelling Highsmith I've read. It's a very simple and even unoriginal tale of two married people who've grown to detest each other. The fact that our sympathies are almost entirely with one of them, but we understand the other equally well is testament to Highsmith's skill. Another factor is the small New England town they live in. The protaganists play on the support of each of their friends and neighbours in their poisonous battle, and as we watch them take sides a vicious, and ultimately brutal story, unfolds.
    I've read Deep Water and that's a good summary. It's masterful. Read a few of her books and expect to get through her catalogue in the next few years, or at least as much as I can find. Might leave the Ripley books till last, though. Looking forward to reading Nothing That Meets the Eye: The Uncollected Stories... if I ever finish American Psycho, which has become arduous.

    Someone mentioned Chandler and his depictions of LA. I've read several of his works and enjoy his style but there are always incidents lacking in sufficient description for me to understand exactly what happened. Been a while so can't isolate specifics but I'm generally left slightly empty at the end of his stories.

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  • Benjm
    replied
    I've ordered Beast in View to add to the holiday list, sold by the AdeC stamp of approval.

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Looks very good. I must read more Millar. Beast in View (In the Weinman compilation mentioned upthread) is gripping. I too read Dread Journey and agree with your assessment. I did like the confinement approach, but the characters are indeed tedious. Having now read four of her books I'd say that's the biggest flaw in her writing. She tends to create stereotypes that generate little interest in and of themselves. The three men in The Scarlet Imperial are utter clichés, the dangerously dark Irishman, with piercing blue eyes; the sensitive businessman with wavy fair hair; and the dashing ex-diplomat with an English accent. Throw in a wealthy Harlowesque blonde, who's entire function is to sigh with boredom every now and then, and you see what I mean. I guess they worked for her audience at the time, but they do detract from the many excellent qualities of her writing.

    Anyway I'll give Vanish in an Instant a try. Thanks for the tip.

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  • Benjm
    replied
    This is going to Spain with me at the end of the month.



    Thank you to Amor who pointed me towards it by mentioning one of Sarah Weinman's other curations. Highsmith, Hughes and Millar are all present and correct, although the introduction places Highsmith's dip into domestic suspense as an outlier in her body of work.

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  • Benjm
    replied
    I was meaning to come back to this thread. I finally got round to reading Dorothy B Hughes' Dread Journey, mentioned above, and followed it with Vanish In An Instant by Margaret Millar.

    The Hughes was entertaining but no greater than the sum of its parts. As those parts are luxury train travel and murderous Hollywood folk, it has a lot of appeal on the surface. The crime itself comes late on but the build up is slightly undermined by a surfeit of lurid internal assessment of the characters, who are well drawn but stock types on the whole; cynical war correspondent, gold digging starlet, unspoiled ingenue, etc.

    Vanish In An Instant is a much better book, without sacrificing any genre thrills. The story is about a spoilt and troubled woman whom overwhelming circumstantial evidence points towards having murdered her lover. Millar's characters convince psychologically and her style is cool and precise (drawing parallels with that of her old man, Kenneth). The setting, a lightly fictionalised Ann Arbor and surroundings, is well realised. There's an unnecessary romance between the detective figure, here a lawyer, and another young, unworldly woman but it doesn't jar enough to spoil the overall effect. That was the first of hers that I've read and definitely won't be the last.

    In full escapist flight, given the dire state of world affairs, I've gone straight into Sideswipe, the third Hoke Moseley novel. I love Charles Willeford's late style. He manages to be funny and discursive without the self-admiring garrulousness that can make, say, Ed McBain hard going at times.
    Last edited by Benjm; 05-08-2019, 22:08.

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Recently read Dorothy B. Hughes's The Scarlet Imperial and Patricia Highsmith's Deep Water back to back. Highsmith, at least in my book, isn't a noir writer by any stretch but certainly underlines who is. Her's is the more satisying effort here, in fact Ripliad aside, it's probably the most compelling Highsmith I've read. It's a very simple and even unoriginal tale of two married people who've grown to detest each other. The fact that our sympathies are almost entirely with one of them, but we understand the other equally well is testament to Highsmith's skill. Another factor is the small New England town they live in. The protaganists play on the support of each of their friends and neighbours in their poisonous battle, and as we watch them take sides a vicious, and ultimately brutal story, unfolds.

    Highsmith is above all a realistic writer. Her characters are flesh, blood bone and brain believable. Hughes is quite the opposite, a romantic (as all noir is) who very much disliked Highsmith's approach. Certainly she was a generation older, but her antipathy is reminiscent of Charlotte Brontë's toward Jane Austen: "Miss Austen merely writes about what is real. I write what is true."

    The Scarlet Imperial is a classic McGuffin, an egg with no real import that's good in parts. It's about one woman and three men. Two of the men are prospective love interests, the third is a father figure/mentor. All are dodgy, all are charismatic, who should Eliza believe? Who should she choose? Who the hell is she anyway? Only the last question is of interest, to me any rate. Hughes witholds as much information as she can get away with, for as long as possible about Eliza. We don't know whether she's implicit in the loss of The Scarlet Imperial, or being used by one or more of the men to get it, or even if that's her real name. By releasing information piecemeal and sporadically, at unlikely intervals, Hughes kept my attention glued to the page for well over half the book. After her identity is revealed however, my interest fell off a cliff. Still and all it is a pretty darned good half a book.

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
    Should one expect likeable characters in JMC's novels? But you're right, Double Indemnity and Postman... are probably as good as he gets.
    BTW I'm finding the third 'IQ' novel of Joe Ide's much better than the reviews suggested. I still think jumping into the middle of the series might be confusing though. In a way they're like three parts of the same story. A bit like a lot of fantasy/sci-fi.

    [sorry, clicked on the wrong reply button!]

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Should one expect likeable characters in JMC's novels? But you're right, Double Indemnity and Postman... are probably as good as he gets.

    Leave a comment:


  • White No Sugar
    replied
    Just finished Serenade by James M Cain. Not many likeable characters but it certainly moves along. I prefer Double Indemnity and The Postman...

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    I've read the first two and concur. They're OK, but I wouldn't want to begin with the second novel for the reason you mention. We have the third, which has had some poor reviews, but I think I'll need a break before check it out.

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  • White No Sugar
    replied
    Originally posted by danielmak View Post
    I haven't read any of these Joe Ide books but the series looks interesting:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/b...e=sectionfront
    Thanks for the heads up.
    Read the first in the series. It’s good not great. Too much back story for my liking which hopefully won’t be the case in the others.

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  • Felicity, I guess so
    replied
    Originally posted by danielmak View Post
    Maybe not a perfect fit for this thread, but there should be some in here that fit:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/b...e=sectionfront
    I have a probably irrational dislike of McCall Smith (recommended for Africa in the link). Was the tv adaptation really twee? It bugged me somehow anyway and I've avoided him ever since. And it's a bit odd to list Dibdin's LAST Zen novel for Italy (picky, me...).

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  • Felicity, I guess so
    replied
    A former PhD student of mine who shares my taste in crime fiction just recommended Don Winslow-it's sitting on my kindle for later. I countered with a Gary Phillips novel I got in Oxfam (Ivan Monk, black PI in LA in the 90s).

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  • danielmak
    replied
    I haven't read any of these Joe Ide books but the series looks interesting:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/b...e=sectionfront

    Leave a comment:


  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Willeford's mentioned near the top of thread by Benj. As I noted the other three Hoke Moseley books are well up to scratch.

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  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    'Miami Blues' by Charles Willeford, especially as it is mostly written from the baddie's POV rather than the detective's. A dark view of Florida in the 80s. Has anyone read Willeford's other books who can attest to whether they maintain this standard? Elmore Leonard states in the Intro that he learned a lot from Willeford.

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  • adams house cat
    replied
    Once again, not a perfect fit but Walter Mosely "Black Betty" or "Devil With A Blue Dress".

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Great. I've only read five of those so far as I can remember. Surprised Nicholas Freeling didn't make it for either Brussels or Strasbourg. And Sjöwall and Wahlöö will take a lot of shifting before anyone else claims Stockholm. For anyone who's interested a decent production of Vikram Chandra's Sacred Games (Mumbai/Bombay) is running on Netflix.

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  • danielmak
    replied
    Maybe not a perfect fit for this thread, but there should be some in here that fit:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/b...e=sectionfront

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    Phillip Kerr's Berlin Noir series, starting late 80s. Dark but funny.

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    Originally posted by Benjm View Post


    Among those waiting on the shelf is Mildred Pierce, his third undisputed classic and source of a classic film. Not to mention The Butterfly, which I have in a tie-in edition for a film starring Pia Zadora and Orson Welles. I really hope that the posters ran with 'Together At Last!' as the strapline.


    A big thing about Cain is that if you take away the hard-boiled reputation and look at his plots and characterisation, his novels are essentially romantic melodramas presented so as not to disconcert male readers.
    Pia Zadora and Orson Welles? Good grief!

    I had exactly the same thought re: romantic melodrama on reading The Cocktail Waitress. It's a darker and dirtier Harlequin (sans happy ending of course.)

    Originally posted by Benjm View Post
    I've ordered a Dorothy B Hughes after her mention above; Dread Journey, which is apparently about a Hollywood starlet being stalked on a trans-continental train. That sounds great!
    I'll just have to read Dread Journey in that case — I'm a sucker for train stories. Much of The Blackbirder also takes place on trains. She has an almost Conan Doyle-ish obsession with times and connections.

    After reading Ride the Pink Horse I'm beginning to realise that Hughes was a superior writer in the genre. The story's structure is both effective and, AFAIK, original. I won't get into a long description, but it takes place during fiesta (obviously Santa Fe, but unnamed). The protagonist, a dodgy fixer from Chicago, is a total outsider. He doesn't get it, the event, the people, anything. The celebration functions as both a trap, and a barrier, that in a succession of incidents prevents him confronting his old boss who owes him money. It is remarkably well done.

    BTW this collection is well worth purchasing

    Not all noir by any means but it includes In a Lonely Place, an excellent early Patricia Highsmith, a Margaret Millar and others.
    Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 31-05-2018, 17:17.

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  • Amor de Cosmos
    replied
    OOOooooo! I'd luurve to see that.

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  • Aitch
    replied
    I have just seen Double Noir (in a gallery, I can't find it on the internet but it's an excellent piece of craftsmanship well worth watching). It's a 4' 04" animation made by Serbian artist Nemanja Nikolić in chalk on blackboards.

    As the exhibition notes say, "Using deconstruction by tampering with film stills taken from eighteen Humphrey Bogart noir movies and by transfering them into drawings, a new movie narrative is formed. The act of drawing is preceded by the selection of the movie sequences and then individual frames taken from them are drawn in white chalk on a blackboard. These drawings are then photographed and erased with a sponge. The same blackboard is then used for the next drawing. Each blackboard stands for one movie sequence. The only lasting drawing document of this complex undertaking is the drawing of the last frame of the 60 sequences that make up the narrative.

    Photos of the whole series are then made into an animation that becomes the only medium that safeguards the complete ‘memory’ of this layered work. The drawings in sequences, however, are not copies or verbatim ‘quotes’ taken out of the movie. The author combines, multiplies, finesses or accumulates in the same layer segments of 18 different noir movies. Drawing a line and writing a letter are thus made out to be the same, and drawing becomes a form of cinematography in its own right by articulating meaning in non-static movie time-space through juxtaposition of images, sounds and movements.(...)

    Thematically, the Double Noir narrative is based on the legendary noir protagonist, the actor Humphrey Bogart. As the animation starts, he appears in a darkened room. Silence is interrupted by footsteps and then a doorbell rings. Answering it, Bogart meets his doppelganger. Suspicion, panic and psychological bifurcation are fuel for a schizoid scene that turns the animation into a chase in which one of them will die. Who is the killer and who is the victim remains unexplained (...) the last scene of the Double Noir loops back to the beginning where we again witness Humphrey Bogart appearing in the darkened room, hearing footsteps in the distance when the doorbell rings.... "

    Got that? Here's one of the stills:

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  • Benjm
    replied
    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
    I've just finished Serenade (which I've a beat up first edition of somehow.) It's not easy. Relentlessly racially negative about Mexicans, though the central female character is a sympathetic and heroic Latina. Similarly the male protagonist is explicitly bi-sexual, but the major villain gay. It's preposterous, disturbing and fascinating in equal measure.
    Yes, I read Serenade earlier this year and it is quite something. Apart from the above (and a fairly casually mentioned rape), there's the whole musical aspect of it. The anti-hero is an opera singer, much of the story revolves around him losing and finding his voice, in a not entirely subtle analogy for something else, and there are fairly lengthy passages of hard-boiled classical music criticism. Perhaps the most bizarre thing is that Cain manages to wrestle all this into something of a page turner.

    I've also recently read JMC's The Root Of His Evil, in which a poor girl on the make takes up with a spoiled rich kid, from a disapproving family of maniacs. I meant to mention this on another thread, as the heroine narrates it in the first person. Rainbow's End is a distant ancestor of Scott Smith's A Simple Plan, but with added layers of melodrama and extended riffs on hillbilly social mores, because it is a James M Cain novel, after all. In The Magician's Wife a high flying catering executive falls for a beautiful but troubled young woman who is married to a magician. SPOILER. It doesn't end well.

    Among those waiting on the shelf is Mildred Pierce, his third undisputed classic and source of a classic film. Not to mention The Butterfly, which I have in a tie-in edition for a film starring Pia Zadora and Orson Welles. I really hope that the posters ran with 'Together At Last!' as the strapline.

    I think you have to be something of a romantic to get off on the genre,
    A big thing about Cain is that if you take away the hard-boiled reputation and look at his plots and characterisation, his novels are essentially romantic melodramas presented so as not to disconcert male readers.

    I'll come back to Willeford when I've got the two non-Miami omnibuses to hand. His catalogue is quite confusing as a lot of his early works were reissued with different Miami-tastic titles to take advantage of his '80s success. Torrid tales of two-bit losers and femmes fatales were also his thing rather than the (slightly) more sober P.I. as social commentator end of the field.

    I've ordered a Dorothy B Hughes after her mention above; Dread Journey, which is apparently about a Hollywood starlet being stalked on a trans-continental train. That sounds great!

    Leave a comment:

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