Elie Wiesel

[Levin]

Has died aged 87.

Night is an amazing, terrifying, harrowing book.

[Reed John]

Elie Wiesel

I once passed him on the way into the Men's room at BU.

[G-Man]

Elie Wiesel

Wiesel was a man who inspired admiration, until I learned that he was an ultra-Zionist and keen apologist for the crimes against Palestinians committed by Israel.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Elie Wiesel

Not sure "ultra-zionist" is either accurate or helpful here, tbh.

I thought this critique of Wiesel's approach to the Holocaust was kind of interesting, though.

[Reed John]

Elie Wiesel

I find that convincing.

The notion that the holocaust was exceptional or beyond history makes no sense. The Holocaust had been in the mail for centuries. That's the lesson we're supposed to have learned from it, I thought. Indeed, that's the best defense for why Israel needs to exist, or so I thought.

And, counter that last bit in that piece, as a Christian, I don't see Jesus' death as beyond history either. Quite the opposite. I don't see how it makes any sense otherwise.

[G-Man]

Elie Wiesel

Anton Gramscescu wrote: Not sure "ultra-zionist" is either accurate or helpful here, tbh.

So what was his enthusiastic support of the occupation and the methods by which it is sustained based on. It's not helpful, tbh, to call my choice of word as inaccurate and unhelpful without offering an alternative.

But whatever the terminology, Wiesel defended the indefensible. That stains his reputation indelibly.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Elie Wiesel

G-Man wrote:

Not sure "ultra-zionist" is either accurate or helpful here, tbh.

So what was his enthusiastic support of the occupation and the methods by which it is sustained based on. It's not helpful, tbh, to call my choice of word as inaccurate and unhelpful without offering an alternative.

Well, the way I understand this term to usually be used (you may use it differently) it tends to imply that someone's central political goals are for Israel's territorial aggrandizement beyond the 1967 borders, perhaps even to include all of "Judaea and Samaria". To my knowledge, this was never true of Wiesel.

Wiesel seems to me to have been like a lot of North American jews (my grandmother comes to mind) in that they would never advocate Israel take a hawkish position but are literally incapable of believing that anyone acting on behalf of the State of Israel could ever act from impure motives. Hence, violence involving Palestinians is terrible, but is always in self-defence. It's wilful blindness. And it is used for cover by people with much more sinister motives. But it's not, to my mind, "ultra-zionism".

(But whatever the terminology, Wiesel defended the indefensible. That stains his reputation indelibly.

Agree about the stains. But people are usually a mix of good and bad. Does it outweigh the other stuff? Not sure. They need to be weighed together, certainly.

[ad hoc]

Elie Wiesel

Wasn't he a board member of a number of settlement committees? It's [fairly ] Zionist

[G-Man]

Elie Wiesel

Fair enough, Wiesel actually never identified as a Zionist. But with lines like "It's clear to me that one can't be Jewish without Israel" and his defence of the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, he alligned himself with the Zionism of the Netanyahu regime, which boils down to "all of Judea and Samaria". Wiesel had the option of insisting on the pre-1967 borders. He didn't. He defended the occupation and colonising of the West Bank. I'm happy to revise the level of Zionism this indicates, but I'd not start with "moderate".

Maybe he was being naive (even if he was, he was being willfully so, ignoring evidence that he was confronted with). For somebody who built his reputation on attacking human rights abuses everywhere, the defence of naively idealising Israel is not available.

[linus]

Elie Wiesel

Anton Gramscescu wrote:

Not sure "ultra-zionist" is either accurate or helpful here, tbh.

So what was his enthusiastic support of the occupation and the methods by which it is sustained based on. It's not helpful, tbh, to call my choice of word as inaccurate and unhelpful without offering an alternative.

Well, the way I understand this term to usually be used (you may use it differently) it tends to imply that someone's central political goals are for Israel's territorial aggrandizement beyond the 1967 borders, perhaps even to include all of "Judaea and Samaria". To my knowledge, this was never true of Wiesel.

Wiesel seems to me to have been like a lot of North American jews (my grandmother comes to mind) in that they would never advocate Israel take a hawkish position but are literally incapable of believing that anyone acting on behalf of the State of Israel could ever act from impure motives. Hence, violence involving Palestinians is terrible, but is always in self-defence. It's wilful blindness. And it is used for cover by people with much more sinister motives. But it's not, to my mind, "ultra-zionism".

(But whatever the terminology, Wiesel defended the indefensible. That stains his reputation indelibly.

Agree about the stains. But people are usually a mix of good and bad. Does it outweigh the other stuff? Not sure. They need to be weighed together, certainly.

Before 1967, there was Deir Yassin, and hundreds of other native villages that were wiped off the map. And Weisel was in the thick of it with his Irgun crowd.

Finkelstein had him pegged as a leading figure of the holocaust industry, but Hitchens really nailed Wiesel as the "contemptable poseur and windbag" who receives an undue amount of deference.

https://www.thenation.com/article/wiesel-words/

[Anton Gramscescu]

Elie Wiesel

ad hoc wrote: Wasn't he a board member of a number of settlement committees? It's [fairly ] Zionist

Was he? News to me, but that would shift my views a bit if so.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Elie Wiesel

G-Man wrote: Fair enough, Wiesel actually never identified as a Zionist. But with lines like "It's clear to me that one can't be Jewish without Israel" and his defence of the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, he alligned himself with the Zionism of the Netanyahu regime, which boils down to "all of Judea and Samaria". Wiesel had the option of insisting on the pre-1967 borders. He didn't. He defended the occupation and colonising of the West Bank. I'm happy to revise the level of Zionism this indicates, but I'd not start with "moderate".

I guess my point is if he's ultra-Zionist then so are most North American Jews and that sort of deprives the "ultra" thing of meaning.

[Reed John]

Elie Wiesel

You just don't understand ultra culture.

[ad hoc]

Elie Wiesel

Anton Gramscescu wrote:

Wasn't he a board member of a number of settlement committees? It's [fairly ] Zionist

Was he? News to me, but that would shift my views a bit if so.

Specifically in East Jerusalem I think rather than further into the West bank, but still illegal etc

http://972mag.com/a-palestinian-admirer-of-night-disenchanted-by-its-author-elie-wiesel/98022/

[G-Man]

Elie Wiesel

Anton Gramscescu wrote:

Fair enough, Wiesel actually never identified as a Zionist. But with lines like "It's clear to me that one can't be Jewish without Israel" and his defence of the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, he alligned himself with the Zionism of the Netanyahu regime, which boils down to "all of Judea and Samaria". Wiesel had the option of insisting on the pre-1967 borders. He didn't. He defended the occupation and colonising of the West Bank. I'm happy to revise the level of Zionism this indicates, but I'd not start with "moderate".

I guess my point is if he's ultra-Zionist then so are most North American Jews and that sort of deprives the "ultra" thing of meaning.

Yeah, I'm happy to drop the "ultra". Though most North American Jews seem to draw their views from a pool of naivety and propaganda; a public figure -- a human rights icon! -- like Wiesel can't claim to have had access only to distortion and idealism. And, as ad hoc has pointed out, was actively complicit in a Zionism that goes beyond the vision of Herzl.

[ursus arctos]

Elie Wiesel

Adelson and his ilk have to get some return for the hundreds of millions they've spent.