Tolkien (continued)

[Sits]

The last few posts remind me of my son and his best schoolmate of the time, endlessly exchanging a basic dialogue as they went about whatever game they were playing:

”Sam!”
”Master Frodo!”
”Sam!”
”Master Frodo!”

repeat to fade.

[Hot Pepsi]

DM, that's really cool that you know those radio adaptions so closely. Some of the sounds in that adaption are really close to my heart, like the hooves of the Nazgūl. Still scary stuff. I would love to read more on how they did the sounds – I would presume it's BBC Radiophonic Workshop stuff.

I've not read around Tolkien stuff much, but the three subtexts that seem somewhat meaningful to me are, firstly and most obviously, the spectre of the First World War, when many of the men folk went away and never came back; the Christian analogies, even though I'm not remotely religious, with the relatively unusual idea of Frodo having to bear his own personal burden just through a sense of duty to others; and maybe a gay subtext with Sam's evident love for Frodo, which I find moving in its right, and can't help but deepen the emotional impact of the story as a whole

Tolkien said all his school friends died in the war.

I don’t think Sam was gay. He seemed to be very intent on marrying Rosie, which he did. They had 10
kids, as I recall.

[Sits]

Yeah, just devoted and with a strong sense of duty. I think he also feels sorry for Master Frodo a lot of the time during their trek.

[Sits]

I’ve just remembered the other extremely scary part of the books, the Paths Of The Dead.

[Patrick Thistle]

I think there's a depiction of love there without it necessarily being a sexual attraction.

The Tolkien film implied one of his school friends was gay and in love with him. I don't know if that's been proven. His friend died in the war.

[diggedy derek]

GO, haha, that’s excellent!

Just leaving Lothlorian on some boats in my relisten of the BBC radio version

[Hot Pepsi]

Yeah, just devoted and with a strong sense of duty. I think he also feels sorry for Master Frodo a lot of the time during their trek.

There's a bit of class stuff not so far beneath the surface in that relationship.

Bilbo is, supposedly, the richest man in town. That's not really played up in the film other than that it shows he has a very nice house and doesn't seem to have a real job. While most of the story relies on medieval or ancient myths, Bilbo represents a Victorian ideal of a country gentleman smoking a pipe while reading by the fire.

Frodo inherits Bilbo's estate and, it's mentioned, that Bilbo taught Frodo to read and write, implying that most hobbits don't necessarily know how to do that, so Frodo is mostly a man of leisure.

Sam and his dad are the Baggins' gardeners. Hobbit culture isn't quite so stratified as that of men in that world but still, they are the help and he is the landlord.
A such, Frodo and Sam initially have a kind of knight-squire, Hillary-Norgay relationship. Very friendly and caring, but not at all "equal" as we would understand it.
But as the story evolves, Frodo's respect and admiration for Sam grows and it becomes more like peer friendship.

And of course, Gandalf and the other character's respect grows for the Hobbits. In the beginning, Gandalf in particular is very impatient with them and treats them like children in some moments.

That's why the "My friends, you bow to no one" moment brings the house down. It's so well earned.

But even with that, it's a bummer we don't get to see Merry and Pippen step-up and show their courage and leadership ability during the final war against Saruman. And in the bits where Tolkien explained what happened to all the characters after the main story ends, he said that both Merry and Pippen went onto become important leaders in their communities. In the film, they both show their bravery in the final battles, but they're still a bit unsure of themselves.

To a large extent, that's just standard hero's journey stuff that Tolkien would have been very familiar with, but I suspect he was also influenced by his experience in the war seeing kids grow up very fast and take on leadership roles simply because everyone else had been killed.

[delicatemoth]

But even with that, it's a bummer we don't get to see Merry and Pippen step-up and show their courage and leadership ability during the final war against Saruman

They show their leadership and resourcefulness by sparking the Ents into action, and get their chance to show their outstanding martial prowess in the final battles, by which time you can believe they've been toughened into warriors who can bring down big monsters

The whole thing with hobbits is they are little people who have to use their wits, guts and will rather than being strong. The most off moment in the Hobbit film I watched the other night was when Bilbo leapt from a tree to save Thorin by barrelling aside an orc three times his size. It would have been far more apposite for him to throw dust in the orc's eyes. I guess the film makers felt he needed a heroic moment before the credits rolled, but if it had been two films rather than three he would have had that when he rescues the dwarves from the spiders by being crafty.

The real love story in LOTR is Legolas and Gimli. One bit in the appendix suggests that they sailed over the Sea together! Either Legolas was taking Gimli to his doom or their love was so strong that the Valar allowed this flagrant breach of the standard rules.

[Third rate Leszno]

Been reading this (and the previous discussion which spawned it) with interest. As with a few of you, I read the Hobbit at junior school and LOTR in my early teens. I loved both, but didn't re-visit the Hobbit once I'd read LOTR because I guess I felt I'd grown out of reading 'kids books'. I also read the Silmarillion, and to be honest I loved that most of all because of the scale of it and the context it gave me for LOTR. I've not read any of the books in over 25 years now but if I didn't have a seemingly never-ending backlog of books that sit unread on my shelves then I'd be very tempted to go back and re-read them.

As for the films, well, I wouldn't count myself a fanboy or someone who wants to see the book reproduced faithfully on screen, but the introduction of new characters did jar a bit. I enjoyed the LOTR trilogy immensely despite that. As for the Hobbit trilogy, I can remember watching the first one and thinking it was ok but how in the hell were they going to string this out for another two films? I remember absolutely nothing about the next two, though I'm 98% sure I must have watched them - which perhaps says something about how good and memorable they are.

I'd vaguely heard that Amazon were making a prequel and thought it must be based on the Silmarillion (and thought that was very ambitious indeed), so it was a little disappointing (but made more sense) when I read what it was actually based upon. I've not watched any of it yet, but will do at some point.

[Hot Pepsi]

They show their leadership and resourcefulness by sparking the Ents into action, and get their chance to show their outstanding martial prowess in the final battles, by which time you can believe they've been toughened into warriors who can bring down big monsters

The whole thing with hobbits is they are little people who have to use their wits, guts and will rather than being strong. The most off moment in the Hobbit film I watched the other night was when Bilbo leapt from a tree to save Thorin by barrelling aside an orc three times his size. It would have been far more apposite for him to throw dust in the orc's eyes. I guess the film makers felt he needed a heroic moment before the credits rolled, but if it had been two films rather than three he would have had that when he rescues the dwarves from the spiders by being crafty.

The real love story in LOTR is Legolas and Gimli. One bit in the appendix suggests that they sailed over the Sea together! Either Legolas was taking Gimli to his doom or their love was so strong that the Valar allowed this flagrant breach of the standard rules.

That's true. Their prowess during the Scouring of the Shire and then the coda about them going on to become sheriffs or mayors or whatever just brings all that home, you're right that we do see some of that arc in the film anyway.

I will say, however, that I always forget which one is Pippin and which one is Merry.


Sailing over the sea means they went on to be immortal, essentially, in Valinor. It's not entirely clear, really, but I guess it's sort of like heaven. The implication is that they'd let Gimli in because he knew the right people and earned his place with his valor in the War of the Ring.

In the book, Frodo has a dream early on in the story where he hears "A song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise."

And then when he sails away at the end, "It seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise."

In the film, Gandalf uses those same words to explain to Pippin why death isn't so bad. So that implies that everyone ends up there sooner or later. But does that mean that the people who chose to sail there essentially chose a quiet suicide? Perhaps. I certainly can't think of anything in Christian lore that is like that, but perhaps he got it from some other mythology.

[Hot Pepsi]

Been reading this (and the previous discussion which spawned it) with interest. As with a few of you, I read the Hobbit at junior school and LOTR in my early teens. I loved both, but didn't re-visit the Hobbit once I'd read LOTR because I guess I felt I'd grown out of reading 'kids books'. I also read the Silmarillion, and to be honest I loved that most of all because of the scale of it and the context it gave me for LOTR. I've not read any of the books in over 25 years now but if I didn't have a seemingly never-ending backlog of books that sit unread on my shelves then I'd be very tempted to go back and re-read them.

As for the films, well, I wouldn't count myself a fanboy or someone who wants to see the book reproduced faithfully on screen, but the introduction of new characters did jar a bit. I enjoyed the LOTR trilogy immensely despite that. As for the Hobbit trilogy, I can remember watching the first one and thinking it was ok but how in the hell were they going to string this out for another two films? I remember absolutely nothing about the next two, though I'm 98% sure I must have watched them - which perhaps says something about how good and memorable they are.

I'd vaguely heard that Amazon were making a prequel and thought it must be based on the Silmarillion (and thought that was very ambitious indeed), so it was a little disappointing (but made more sense) when I read what it was actually based upon. I've not watched any of it yet, but will do at some point.

I think the Amazon show is a lot better than what most of the what the hardcore fans seem to think. Even the ones who aren't racist or misogynist are mad about any possible deviation from what Tolkien would have wanted.

His heirs are making a fortune off of it, so if he has an issue, he should bring it up with them.

I think if you set aside expectations based on the Silmarillion or any of the other texts, it works a lot better. The main change is simply that it dramatically compresses the time frame that all of that stuff was supposed to happen in the second age.

But what makes it good is that it's actually developing the characters as characters, instead of making it one long exposition dump or just plot for the sake of plot, as fantasy/scifi shows tend to do.

[delicatemoth]

I said earlier that I enjoyed Rings Of Power, though the time frame compression you mention confused me somewhat. Galadriel as a rage-driven old school Noldo elf is a great contrast to her LOTR character and goes well with what we know about the Noldor's origins (Kinslaying etc.), also setting up an arc where her wise Third Age self has won her wisdom through tragic experience. The hobbit precursors are fascinating and I've just no idea what's going to happen with them, which is good.

[Jimski]

I loved the books when I was young, but bloody hell, they look badly written when I look at them through adult eyes. What I remember being quite scary as a child was that animated film (I think it only covered the first book) - the black riders were definitely well scary in that.

[Hot Pepsi]

They aren’t badly written. They’re just in an antiquated, idiosyncratic style. I know bad writing. I read a lot of it for work. His isn’t bad, especially for an academic.

Jackson did a good job of picking the best bits of text for the films.

The black riders were the most effective bit from the Bakshi film and Jackson’s film borrowed a lot from that.

[diggedy derek]

I think there's some beautiful writing in there. "A great cavalry of horsemen, moving like ordered shadows". It's just weighed down with a lot of story and myth and exposition sometimes.

This Middle Earth map is so nice. You can get it to plot the various different journeys different characters took.

http://lotrproject.com

[Hot Pepsi]

Yeah, that’s great.
I have three framed Middle Earth Maps in my bedroom along with a few other maps. Maps are the theme of the room.

[Sits]

Considering I said I wasn’t interested any more it’s great to see that map again, and interactive.

[diggedy derek]

So I finished the 1981 BBC radio adaptation (13 hours long), which I've heard quite a few times but not for many years. It's really great. It struggles a bit to make the battles interesting, which is not perhaps surprising for a radio performance, and a lot of the war type stuff gets bogged down in endless exposition, and Aragorn shouting "Elendil!" a lot.

But the Frodo and Sam stuff is powerfully atmospheric, and obvious though it might be, it makes Mordor sound grim and absolutely terrifying. The tension is almost unbearable, which is not bad for a few people sitting in front of microphones and some clever sound effects.

Of course, it's all swords and sorcery stuff, which one can take or leave. But there's a quite powerful postmodern moment when Sam and Frodo are talking about whether they will one day be talked or sung about in stories or songs of great people and great deeds, and Frodo says something along the lines of "I think this next bit might be the bit where it'll get too scary. It'll be the time when they say 'close the book dad, we've had enough now'." It's a dreadful (literally) moment.

Edit: "I wonder if people will ever say, 'Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring." That bit.

[delicatemoth]

It struggles a bit to make the battles interesting

Battles are inherently kind of boring and need an angle to lift them up. One of my favourite bits is in the battle for Gondor when Mordor deploys the battering ram Grond. It makes this ghastly whooshing sound resolving into impact as the Witch King croons "Again!"

[diggedy derek]

Cor, these sounds are ingrained in both our minds, I'm sure, dm. Some of the very scariest bits include Grond, and that bit where the massive Ork army suddenly emerges from Minas Morgul. Awe inspiring and soul destroying.

[delicatemoth]

It makes me think there should be more audio adaptations of fantasy/sci-fi, as opposed to film or televisual ones.

[Patrick Thistle]

If you haven't yet seen the new Lego set of Rivendell, Google it.

I've seen it IRL and it's one of the most beautiful Lego sets I have ever seen.

In fact, here's a review https://www.newelementary.com/2023/0...rd-of.html?m=1

[elguapo4]

A fair bit to say on this, but the 1981 BBC radio series is still absolutely incredible.

You can listen to the entire thing here.

https://archive.org/details/lord-of-the-rings-10

Finally finished all thirteen episodes, having got through half of it a few years ago. It's interesting to hear the difference between this and the movies.

Both omit Bombadil, and the radio show states the age difference between Frodo and the rest of the Hobbits. Arwen plays a much larger part in the movies, as obviously do the battles , being a visual medium. The battle at the Black Gate is completely ignored in the radio series.

I read elsewhere that Peter Jackson told anybody who was unfamiliar with the story to listen to this series, and it showed in a couple of places, particularly with Sam, where Sean Astin, while giving an excellent performance of his own, basically impersonates Bill Nighy's original take. The influence of Michael Hordern and Peter Woodthorpe can be heard in the performances of Ian Mc Kellen and Andy Serkis also.

[diggedy derek]

Ah, nice. Really hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

It's shaped my thinking on LOTR so much that I can barely remember stuff the movies put in.

[Hot Pepsi]

If you haven't yet seen the new Lego set of Rivendell, Google it.

I've seen it IRL and it's one of the most beautiful Lego sets I have ever seen.

In fact, here's a review https://www.newelementary.com/2023/0...rd-of.html?m=1

$500 is a lot of money for a Lego set.