Getting books out of the library

[Felicity, I guess so]

[Felicity, I guess so]

That was my haul of French books when the library was jettisoning Modern Languages last year. One box still unpacked on my office carpet.

[imp]

Good on you for saving them, but what a depressing scenario. Is it a case of, "We're out the EU now, no one needs French any more"?

I don't get what Brits and Americans (or their education systems) have in general against learning foreign languages. Is it down to the way they are taught at school? Why is learning a language always perceived as a chore rather than a joy? Has there been any re-think on the way languages are taught the past 30 years?

[Sporting]

Has there been any re-think on the way languages are taught the past 30 years?

Yes, it's gotten worse.

Depressing, isn't it? Obviously with English being the world lingua franca there's less need as such for us to learn a foreign language. I have many questions. What was the situation like in secondary schools, say, between the wars? Do Aussies and other English-speaking countries have better language teaching systems than the UK or the USA? Did Britain in particular become more anti (or indifferent) towards foreign language learning after WW2? How far did the independent schools' emphasis on Latin and ancient Greek mess things up?

We should have invested more in good teachers and pushed the benefits of learning other languages much more, but maybe that ship has sailed.

[Sporting]

It would also be interesting to know how much of a correlation there is between rich, powerful nations/countries with colonial pasts (and presents!)/isolated countries/ nations ruled by dictators or semi-dictators and the ability of their population to speak foreign tongues. How many Hungarians know English or Russian or German? Why do more Dutch speak English than do the French?

[ad hoc]

I read a fairly convincing article once about how there appears to be a level of chauvinism/nationalism/"sense of superiority" in some nations that correlates to (lack) of language learning ability. Hence Hungarians have a sense of strong national sentiment and they are one of the most monolingual countries in Europe. Romanians on the other hand, while strongly patriotic have much more of a national inferiority complex, to the point where many of the diaspora for example, don;t even teach their kids Romanian, instead focussing on Spanish, or Italian or whatever the language of the country there are in is. (The article drew this into the subject of dubbing vs subtitling, arguing that the reason that some countries dub is a sense that their own language is superior (Russia, Hungary, Spain, etc), while others subtitle as they don;t have that strength of feeling (and countries that subtitle tend to be much better at learning English, specifically, since much film and TV is made in English)

I'm not entirely convinced however (seems Germany has fairly strong sense of self-worth for example, and yet tend to be excellent language learners)

[Sporting]

Hence Hungarians have a sense of strong national sentiment and they are one of the most monolingual countries in Europe. Romanians on the other hand, while strongly patriotic have much more of a national inferiority complex, to the point where many of the diaspora for example, don;t even teach their kids Romanian, instead focussing on Spanish,

Spanish is of course in the same language group as Romanian. As for Hungarian...

[Sporting]

(The article drew this into the subject of dubbing vs subtitling, arguing that the reason that some countries dub is a sense that their own language is superior (Russia, Hungary, Spain, etc), while others subtitle as they don;t have that strength of feeling (and countries that subtitle tend to be much better at learning English, specifically, since much film and TV is made in English)

Portugal and Spain are excellent examples of the advantages of subtitles over dubbing.

[ad hoc]

Portugal and Spain are excellent examples of the advantages of subtitles over dubbing.

Best example I can give you is that Hungarians in Romania grew up with subtitling (on Romanian TV), and they tend to speak better English than Hungarians in Hungary (dubbing) even though English is their third language not second

[ursus arctos]

I haven't spent meaningful time in Hungary since the 80s, but the relative paucity of English speakers was striking even then.

The exception were academics and other people (engineers, for instance) who needed to access contemporary research and textbooks, which were rarely translated into Hungarian. German was very much the language of choice among this group (which at least allowed me to communicate). Though everyone took Russian in school, very few people admitted to knowing any.

Italy is a dubbing country and generally below average in language learning, but not particularly nationalistic. Local and regional loyalties remain very strong, especially within the country. Then again, even a century ago, many citizens of Italy were unintelligible to each other.

[S. aureus]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always found learning foreign languages very hard, which, ironically, is why I actually got good grades at school in them as they were the only subjects I felt the need to work at back then.
I find it interesting developing understanding of how different languages work, and their internal logics, but don't find it easy remembering vocabulary. I have cloth ears and am horrible at interpreting sounds, or mimicking them, and my hand motor control skills are bad enough that my written English is barely intelligible let alone trying to write an alphabet that I haven't ben doing my whole life.
As an English speaker living in an English speaking country my whole life, I've never had any actual need to learn any other language, and there isn't enough motivation for me to put in the amount of work I'd need to do so.

[Wouter D]

seems Germany [...] tend to be excellent language learners

I may be biased, but I am not at all on board with this.

[Sporting]

Go on..

[Wouter D]

It's the stereotypical small country / bigger neighbor thing.

Pick ten random Dutchmen and at least five of them speak German. Pick ten random Germans from the provinces bordering the Netherlands, and I'd be surprised if more than one of them speak Dutch.

Some German tourists coming to the Dutch coast have the common decency to try in Dutch or English first. Other German tourists coming to the Dutch coast just start blabbing away in German in the expectation that we'll accommodate them. Zero Dutch tourists going to Germany expect the locals to understand Dutch.

Before Covid-19, I attended plenty of international CS conferences. When you're in a group of Dutch researchers and some foreigner walks up to the group, the conversation switches mid-sentence to English and everyone can join in. When you're in a group of German researchers and some foreigner walks up to the group, the conversation stays German and the foreigner can just go do one.

As a consequence, if those German researchers hold conference talks in English, the accent is horrific. If those Dutch researchers hold conference talks in English, there may not be zero accent, but it is definitely less of a problem. Lack of practice kills.

[ursus arctos]

From my limited experience that description also applies generally to Spain and Portugal

[Amor de Cosmos]

Obviously with English being the world lingua franca there's less need as such for us to learn a foreign language. I have many questions. What was the situation like in secondary schools, say, between the wars? Do Aussies and other English-speaking countries have better language teaching systems than the UK or the USA?

My Dad was taught German and French at secondary school in the 30s. He couldn't really speak either language. I suspect he was taught pretty much the same way I was taught Latin (and French) thirty years later, ie: as an academic subject to be studied rather than practiced.

In most of Canada you have the theoretical choice of learning all subjects in English or French. Though the latter has limited enrollment in many areas. In Quebec you'll be taught in French unless your native language is English.

[Felicity, I guess so]

I unpacked (well, took the lid off...) the last one this afternoon and was gutted to find the 2 volumes of Generation (with acute accents): Les Annees de reve/Les annees de poudre ( a hefty oral history of May 68 and after by Hamon & Rotman) was not there. Must’ve got misplaced between me putting them on a shelving trolley and them boxing up...

[ursus arctos]

My mother was taught in a bilingual Polish-English Catholic schools until high school.

This helped her develop native proficiency in English (her family spoke Polish at home), but because the language of instruction was based entirely on the proficiency of individual nuns, it created weird situations. Having never learned Geometry, Algebra or Geography in English, she would often fail completely at recalling the English word for an octagon or the Rocky Mountains.

[danielmak]

I suspect he was taught pretty much the same way I was taught Latin (and French) thirty years later, ie: as an academic subject to be studied rather than practiced.

I think this is a crucial point. Of course, some of the practice in the US, at least, is down to the prioritizing of English so it's harder to go to the cinema, a grocery store, a restaurant and to speak French, for example. If someone wants to learn Spanish and lives in a big city in the US the practice is a lot easier. I go to a pizza by the slice place near me regularly and all of the discussion is in Spanish because I want to practice.

But I would also place part of the blame on individual learners, not just on some larger systemic English first politics. Most students will choose some outside class time to practice in creative ways. For example, my daughter is studying German and she says a lot of her classmates have set their tinder profiles for Germany or Vienna so they can practice German. They obviously aren't going to date someone in Germany when they're in the US. But then I ask her how often they speak German with each other outside class and she says never. At various points I was paying for IPTV and we had 40+ channels from Germany and Austria. I regularly reminded her about this so she could use a daily activity during the summer to maintain her comprehension and I just got eye rolls.

The last thing I would say is that most people are too self conscious to practice. Hell, I was in Mexico City for 3 weeks doing a language class with other colleagues. Most in my intermediate group (really Basic+) had much more developed vocabulary and sense of sentence structure than I had but they wouldn't speak. I always did all the talking when we were out because I had no problem making mistakes and had no problem laughing at myself or being laughed at. That's how I learned. [Big qualifier with this one. I am a man; they were women. I was more established in our field at that time so there was an element of privilege that buttressed that confidence.] To bring this back to my pizza by the slice place, I fuck up all the time. The dudes I talk with either correct me or don't and the conversation moves along.

[Uncle Ethan]

In the 70s in England our language tuition was basically here is a book about a French family and their monkey. I am sure the phrases you learn will be very useful if you encounter a French family that owns a monkey. If I meet up with old school friends a variation on "o? est votre singe aujourd’hui" will be uttered.

Obviously some people had the desire and dedication to persevere and I take full responsibility for not doing so myself. I have no doubt the Little Englander mentality discouraged many of us from doing so. On my list of things I wish I had done when young learned a language is just ahead of learned to play a musical instrument.

[Felicity, I guess so]

Well 2nd hand book buying being what it is nowadays I’ve just secured both volumes for under a tenner.
Different sellers, with vol 2 coming from Dunfermline of all places, where my parents lived and wee brother still does.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

It's a disaster how language teaching in the UK has been allowed to decline massively over the last 40 years, in terms of numbers. Fucking stupid stubborn monoglot attitudes everywhere. Worse since the Brexit thing started obviously - my wife encountered that from parents as a secondary school French teacher.

[Felicity, I guess so]

I think it’s a combo of circumstances, policies and attitudes and it annoys me to have it explained as Brexit-related since the rot set in under Blair

[Sporting]

My partner is a secondary school French teacher and on one hand quite enjoys the small groups!

[Wouter D]

At various points I was paying for IPTV and we had 40+ channels from Germany and Austria. I regularly reminded her about this so she could use a daily activity during the summer to maintain her comprehension and I just got eye rolls.?

In her defense, German TV is rather shit.