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    #26
    That's a speech I have referenced a few times. The audio here.
    https://youtu.be/8zLQLUpNGsc

    FYI, when Malcolm X was at the NOI he regularly gave speeches at churches, universities etc.

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      #27
      Not sure if I will bother with this Marable book. It seems like it's a bit of a negative hit piece. I could be wrong and it could be down to you mis selling it somewhat.

      Comment


        #28
        I don't think it's a hit piece but it wants to present a particular story of Malcolm gradually moving towards a more "moderate" position, whereby he becomes willing to work within the "democratic" US system rather than as a revolutionary, and it selects the evidence accordingly.
        Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 05-10-2020, 19:21.

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          #29
          'Set the World on Fire: Black Nationalist Women and the Global Struggle for Freedom' by Keisha N. Blain. Not read it but will do so.

          https://www.amazon.com/Set-World-Fir...eisha+N.+Blain

          Comment


            #30
            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
            I don't think it's a hit piece but it wants to present a particular story of Malcolm gradually moving towards a more "moderate" position, whereby he becomes willing to work within the "democratic" US system rather than as a revolutionary, and it selects the evidence accordingly.
            Using words like moderate is somewhat misleading, Is there any evidence he planned to become part of the democratic process?

            I have never see any speech or writing from Malcolm X where he has stated he is against democracy. His criticism have always been the black agenda offered by both political parties (or lack of it). Hence his numerous fox and wolf analogies in his speeches and interviews.

            He engaged with numerous politicians activists and other groups in his time with the NOI.
            MLK agrees and said this, "We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote".

            like i said, i can only judge the book by the extracts you have chosen to share and all to a word are very negative.

            Comment


              #31
              The NOI was opposed to Black Muslims registering to vote and Malcolm adhered to that, whereas in early 1965 he was in Selma in the midst of its voting rights campaign. But he also became open to socialism, willing to work with Castro, Mao and other socialist leaders whose systems were not democracies. His Selma speech was open to using non-violent methods but with the fallback position of violence if The Man did not give blacks equality through nonviolent means. Under the NOI he saw all whites as devils whereas by 1965 he was only identifying whites in power as the enemy and was willing to accept that some whites might be reachable.

              Moderate is the wrong word - I would say he changed from automatically anti-white to more anti-capitalist but recognizing that capitalism was built and maintained by whites.

              Comment


                #32
                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                The NOI was opposed to Black Muslims registering to vote and Malcolm adhered to that, whereas in early 1965 he was in Selma in the midst of its voting rights campaign.
                Malcolm X was in DC during the March on Washington.

                But he also became open to socialism, willing to work with Castro, Mao and other socialist leaders whose systems were not democracies.
                The US was not a democracy in 1960 by any sensible definition, it barely is one today.

                His Selma speech was open to using non-violent methods but with the fallback position of violence if The Man did not give blacks equality through nonviolent means.
                Evidence please.
                The NOI only preached violence as self defence. If anything, he became more militant in this respect after leaving the NOI. See his "by any means necessary" speech in 1965.

                I think you need to read up a bit more on the NOI ideology espoused by Elijah Muhammed. If you are able to get past the White man is a devil talk you can see that their aims had nothing to do with begging the man to break off some bread, it was about opening up their own bakery. This is why they spoke about separation (see negotiations with the clan) and having economic control of their own society. This is why you would see Malcolm X regularly mocking and sneering at King and the Civil rights movement.

                Under the NOI he saw all whites as devils whereas by 1965 he was only identifying whites in power as the enemy and was willing to accept that some whites might be reachable.
                Yes, his views somewhat softened in the way you can say Pine is softer than Mahogany. Him saying only the white people in power were the enemy is a bit of a stretch, unless you are going to give a very wide definition of "in power". He was complimentary of the white Muslims he met on the Hajj. But coming back to America he was not prepared to allow white people to join the OAAU.

                Moderate is the wrong word - I would say he changed from automatically anti-white to more anti-capitalist but recognizing that capitalism was built and maintained by whites.
                Again, evidence please.
                In around 1950, Malcolm X whilst in prison wrote to the president (Truman i think). Declaring himself a Marxist and opposing US intervention in Korea, this put him on the radar of the FBI at the time.
                Are you getting all this from Marable?


                Comment


                  #33
                  That's an excellent reply and I think you're right that changes in Malcolm's views are exaggerated by Marable.

                  In Selma he said:

                  Whatever means will get results in Selma is the means that should be used. Dr. King and his followers are very intelligently trying to impress the people of this area that they should give the Black man the right to vote. Now, if the people in this area are not intelligent enough themselves to recognize what they consider an intelligent approach, then I think the intelligence of the Black people in this area will compel them to devise another method that will get results.
                  He could never have complimented MLK in that way while he was in the NOI. However, I wasn't aware that Malcolm was still doing his "field negro v house negro" comparison at Selma, which shows that he was still hostile towards many of MLK's allies:

                  https://www.themilitant.com/2015/7906/790650.html

                  This does lead to the conclusion that there's more continuity with his criticisms of the March On Washington, about which he said "Yes, I was there. I observed that circus. Who ever heard of angry revolutionists all harmonizing "We Shall Overcome. . .Suum Day. . ." while tripping and swaying along arm-in-arm with the very people they were supposed to be angrily revolting against? Who ever heard of angry revolutionists swinging their bare feet together with their oppressor in lily-pad park pools, with gospels and guitars and "I Have A Dream" speeches?"

                  https://college.cengage.com/history/...ngton_1964.htm

                  There is definitely a reduction in the demonization of *all* white people in his speeches after he leaves the NOI, but you are probably correct that the significance of this is exaggerated (he's still worried about the house negro bowing down to the master). Leaving the NOI also gave him greater freedom to develop and express his Marxist ideas, but again I can't say he had no Marxist sympathies before 1963. So I thank you for making me think more critically on these issues.
                  Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 08-10-2020, 09:47.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                    That's an excellent reply and I think you're right that changes in Malcolm's views are exaggerated by Marable.

                    In Selma he said:

                    He could never have complimented MLK in that way while he was in the NOI. However, I wasn't aware that Malcolm was still doing his "field negro v house negro" comparison at Selma, which shows that he was still hostile towards many of MLK's allies:

                    https://www.themilitant.com/2015/7906/790650.html
                    Malcolm X is on record saying he offered the services of the NOI to provide security during the southern protests in Selma and Montgomery. These were rebuffed by King as he went out of his way to maintain distance between the civil Rights movement and the NOI as he believed publicly associating with them would be counter-productive.
                    Malcolm X believed he was used as a bargaining chip by the civil rights leaders and seemed comfortable with that.
                    "you deal with me (Dr King) or you will eventually have to deal with them (Malcolm X)" .


                    This does lead to the conclusion that there's more continuity with his criticisms of the March On Washington, about which he said "Yes, I was there. I observed that circus. Who ever heard of angry revolutionists all harmonizing "We Shall Overcome. . .Suum Day. . ." while tripping and swaying along arm-in-arm with the very people they were supposed to be angrily revolting against? Who ever heard of angry revolutionists swinging their bare feet together with their oppressor in lily-pad park pools, with gospels and guitars and "I Have A Dream" speeches?"

                    https://college.cengage.com/history/...ngton_1964.htm
                    I agree, his main criticism was the march was hijacked by liberals and white money which changed the focus of the march and imposed their leaders on the grass roots who organised the march.
                    This is why the likes of James Baldwin and Adam Clayton Powell were not allowed to speak (the Godfather of Harlem touched on this)
                    This is Malcolm X take in his own words and own voice in great detail.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f6xdYOe2Ao

                    There is definitely a reduction in the demonization of *all* white people in his speeches after he leaves the NOI, but you are probably correct that the significance of this is exaggerated (he's still worried about the house negro bowing down to the master). Leaving the NOI also gave him greater freedom to develop and express his Marxist ideas, but again I can't say he had no Marxist sympathies before 1963. So I thank you for making me think more critically on these issues.
                    Regarding his Marxist leanings, the ideals of Marxism is not dissimilar to how traditional African societies are structured whereby the well off are supposed to subsidise the poor. This is why this ideology too root easily in Africa especially with the post colonial leaders who were Malcolm X peers.
                    The economic structure of the NOI was not dissimilar to the ideals of Marxism.






                    Last edited by Tactical Genius; 08-10-2020, 13:02.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Good stuff. Thanks for your contributions to the thread.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                        Good stuff. Thanks for your contributions to the thread.
                        Thank you too, I found this quite enjoyable.

                        If you want to know more about Malcolm X, I wouldn't spend too much time reading these biographies and instead go onto youtube where there are hours of his speeches and numerous interviews with him. There is more than enough material out there for you to form a good opinion of him and see an evolution of his speech, thought and rhetoric.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          You're right. The speeches are primary sources, which should always be the priority.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            I have that Malcolm X Playboy interview with Alex Haley somewhere, it was produced as a booklet by the Guardian and given a foreword by the great Gary Younge.

                            Also The Words Of MLK Jr. by Coretta Scott Young, and The Fire Next TIme by James Baldwin.

                            All three are easy to find on eBay quite cheaply.

                            Ah, the interview's on the M X website, which may have already been mentioned, along with all the other resources. It's a nice short introduction for people who don't want to go through everything.

                            http://malcolm-x.org/docs/int_playb.htm
                            Last edited by MsD; 09-10-2020, 15:42.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Satchmo.

                              Saw this article review of a Malcolm X book. I have not read the book personally but the review makes it sound like an interesting read.

                              https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...colm-x/616481/

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Thanks, I'll check it out (not published until Tuesday).

                                One of the authors is holding a free Zoom meeting on November 5th. Could be fireworks!

                                https://wgbh.zoom.us/webinar/registe...SwqFRE5zIif3Fw
                                Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 16-10-2020, 19:59.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                  Thanks, I'll check it out (not published until Tuesday).

                                  One of the authors is holding a free Zoom meeting on November 5th. Could be fireworks!

                                  https://wgbh.zoom.us/webinar/registe...SwqFRE5zIif3Fw
                                  I might log into that if I remember. Sadly I no longer have the time to read books like I did in my youth.
                                  i prefer stuff on YouTube still I can have it on in the background whilst I'm jogging or working at my desk.

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